|
Post by Michael Messer on Mar 24, 2010 20:55:35 GMT
This has become an interesting thread.
I think it was John Lennon who said 'Life is what happens while you're busy making plans'
We live in a world where 'stuff' has become too important. I love nice guitars, we all do and we are all like children in a toy shop when we are around them. I have never met a guitarist who isn't. But it is not really about guitars, it is about playing music. I have a house full of guitars, but when I need to play I grab the nearest one and I'm gone for hours playing music. Well it's music to my ears!!!! .....and that's what matters.
Keep pickin' those guitars!
Shine On Michael.
|
|
|
Post by geoff on Mar 24, 2010 21:53:05 GMT
Oops, a lot happened here!
Bod And Washboardchris, thank you for pointing out that I did some inacurate comparisons.
Gouanga, thanks for putting things back into perspective and for your tolerance. I accidently turned into a forum troll; it was not my wish to offend or irritate anyone.
Colb, you showed me some useful clips. Thanks for that. I also found some really useful National clips on Youtube (with Bob). I learned a lot.
Bluesbottle, sorry I made you sick and angry. I respect your knowledge and your opninion does count, but when I think I hear a difference in two recordings and you say you don't, what else am I to say? I can't just say, you're right I do not hear any difference either. I do understand and use in my research, the fact you find neither if them sounding like a real steel instrument. I never denied that. Growler and Bluesbottle, I am not a native speaker and may have used phrases or figures of speech which turned this all into a mess. I am sorry. And Growler, there are some good recordings on the net too. Nothing beats live testing, but some clips like the National movies even show the difference between steel and brass tricones.
It's is just not my day. A robot outbid me on Ebay for $25 today, at the last 2 seconds of the auction of a one of a kind National reso prototype. The people at National were very friendly; they were even going to put their autographs on the bill to please me. After I lost the auction, I came home to find I did not do any good here either.
Looking for stuff, "making plans" and discussing that, is part of the fun for me too. Very uncool probably. Well Michael, it seems I did not really become a musician after one year . I can't have all the luck.
Cheers,
Geoff
|
|
|
Post by Michael Messer on Mar 24, 2010 22:15:14 GMT
Geoff, your responses to our comments are very good. The real use of a forum is to discuss and debate. Sometimes that can get heated and personal, but that is what real forum is about. We are all different with different agendas, and thank goodness we are, otherwise the world would be a very boring place to be. We are also all very passionate about guitars & music or we wouldn't be here discussing all this stuff. Let us know what guitar you get, Best wishes & Shine On Michael.
|
|
|
Post by andys on Mar 25, 2010 11:49:11 GMT
I too have found this an interesting thread and it really has highlighted the pitfalls, the pressures, but also the joys and the pleasures in not only buying guitars but putting them to the best uses for you and hopefully your audiences.
Especially when you throw in the minefield of getting one unseen through an on-line auction.
I have two takes on this.
I dont think I will ever be in the position to buy a National or an NRP, either vintage or otherwise. The most Ive ever spent on a guitar is what I paid for my MM Blues. I cant justify spending that ammount when I have a young family and a limited income and not being a gigging musician (at the moment). However like you Geoff, that means that I too have to make sure that what I am getting is right, or at least in my case can be put right.
Ironically the one guitar that I didn't spend much time thinking about buying was the one I paid the most for. I wanted a decent resonator, I had enough money to get a Busker, and the decision to get it took very little time indeed. And I was proved right, as I play that guitar every day and if I had to keep only one guitar, that one would be it.
Having sold off a few of my cheaper Teles and stuff, I was in the market for a mid range Fender Tele. I spent more time researching and getting hold of a £225 used Tele than I did buying £500 worth of new Busker!
But here is where I put in a bit of a caveat. Differences in tone of guitars are very discernable to us as guitarists, who now have almost unprecedented means of comparison of the often minute differences. YouTube, sound-clips, forums etc. If you think that we are obsessive about tone here, go on something like the TDPRI, where folks wax lyrical about the differences scratchplate material has on the tone of a slab-bodied electric guitar!!!
And who cares about this stuff? Some of us players.
Who doesn't? 95% of audiences.
But thats why forums like this are great for us guitar players.
Whatever we play.
|
|
|
Post by Michael Messer on Mar 25, 2010 14:16:53 GMT
Andy, I disagree about audiences and listeners not 'knowingly' knowing what they are hearing. I agree that they don't know or care if a performer is playing a Strat with regular pickups or handmade hand-wound specials, but they do know what sounds good and what doesn't. I agree that the music is in the musician's touch and musicality, but the equipment they use enhances that experience for the listener and for the player.
I have often had this discussion about producing records. I spend days worrying about the sound of a snare drum on a track and asking people what they think. Their reply might be 'does it matter?' .....and my response would be...'does anything matter!' Well, I think it does because everything, the instruments and the recording & production techniques are what make a good record. A great artist with badly produced records will not get appreciated as much as a mediocre artist with great production. It happens all the time.
I have done concerts that I thought were really good, but because of bad PA sound the audience couldn't hear properly and that affected their listening experience, which in turn affected their opinion of the performance.
So while I agree that the music is more important than the instruments, the instruments do help the musician to make the music.
I think I am making sense, or am I arguing with myself!
Shine On Michael.
|
|
|
Post by washboardchris on Mar 25, 2010 15:54:34 GMT
I agree with Michael, I have done gigs that have gone very well& the audience have loved,but there has been something in the sound that I was not happy about & I have not enjoyed it. I now use my own PA when poss & always try to get there to set up an hour to an hour and a half bofore hand. It doesn't matter how much you spend on a guitar or how well you play,if the sound aint as you like it ,it can put you on edge and spoil the evening for you
|
|
|
Post by andys on Mar 25, 2010 16:39:24 GMT
Just to qualify what I said here if it came across wrong.
Of course PA sound is vitally inportant, and it reinforces my point. We guitarists in our quest for "tone" (and I am as guilty as any for this) forget that often its not the guitar that you are using that makes the performance, the most important part of your sound comes from the big boxes with the knobs and the grilles on the front. We debate brass vs steel, glass vs. brass, Busker vs National, but for and audience (unless they are a load of guitarists) that is not what they are bothered about.
If you take to the stage with a Busker guitar, some of the audience may possibly recognise it as a resonator or even a "dobro". A few may even mistake it as a National. What they are more concerned about is whether they can hear you over the noise of the bar, whether your intros are too long/too short, or whether you do enough slow/fast stuff. They are much more concerned about your choice of material than your choice of guitar.
We worry about the frankly pretty small differences in tone between a £500 guitar and a £2000 one, yet a bigger effect on tone and sound happens from loads of other factors rather than the guitar.
Whats going to sound best? A Custom Shop Fender through a £100 amp, or a Squier through a Dumble?
|
|
|
Post by Stevie on Mar 25, 2010 18:07:04 GMT
Depends whose playing it!
<insert your fave player> or (eg) me through the Dumble...
|
|
|
Post by gouranga on Mar 25, 2010 20:13:30 GMT
I like this discussion. Thanks guys.. For me, the feel of the instrument is very important. When I feel at home with it, then that's the first hurdle crossed, Getting the right sound is the next hurdle. I have played gigs where I was not settled at all the whole night, but at the end the audience came and said they thought it was great. On the other hand, there have been times when I felt good about sound and everything, but the audience reaction was limited. But no doubt, when you have the feel for the guitar and the sound hits the right spot, you just wanna completely let go and give it all you got.
Take care.
Gouranga
|
|
|
Post by geoff on Mar 26, 2010 6:18:36 GMT
Thanks AndyS, you got it exactly right. Thanks Michael, I be back when I have a reso.
|
|
|
Post by geoff on Mar 26, 2010 18:06:49 GMT
Excuse me for asking, but:
A flatback VS an arched back, on a Vintage Steel National Tricone, Is there a difference sound wise?
Can anyone tell me if the Vintage Steel satinated finish tricone is a well respected instrument by experts, or are flatback instruments or Vintage Steel tricones regarded as slightly less?
|
|
|
Post by Michael Messer on Mar 26, 2010 18:12:00 GMT
Hi Geoff,
Yes, there is a difference. Everything makes a difference, but how much difference & whether you would notice the difference, is not something I can answer. Try some out.
Shine On Michael.
|
|
|
Post by tark on Mar 26, 2010 19:11:18 GMT
I'm not sure cos this is a long thread, but I don't think anyone has mentioned ears! I reckon that to some extent you have to learn what you are listening to, to be able to discern good tone. It is certainly easier to figure which guitar is the best or at least which you prefer the sound of if you have the two side by side (with strings in decent condition of course).
Some guitars do sound a lot better than others and in my experience there is a direct relationship most of the time between good sound and higher prices. Also there is more to a guitar than sound - there's looks, tuning ease and stability, and ease of playing too.
I own one of the early MM Lightnings - I'm very happy with it, however I didn't own it for long before I felt I wanted to tweak it in various ways (most people seem to change the tuners almost right away). I own a few National Resophonic guitars too. Straight out of the box these guitars look great, sound great and play great. They cost quite a bit more than an MM guitar.
Now people, Michael for one, will tell you that the NRP guitars, although good, are not the same as the original Nationals. Again the problem here is that if you can find an old National to buy very often it will need some work done on it and that work has to be done very carefully if you want to maintain the guitars vintage value.
Then there is the geopolitical / moral dimension. And make no mistake having China make a sizeable chunk of the worlds goods does affect each and every one of us. For one thing it seems the Chinese are buying up and stock piling raw materials, guitar 'tone' woods included. Some raw materials are sourced almost entirely from China itself. By 2012 China will be using all of its internal production of rare earths. These materials are used to make small high strength magnets which are essential to modern electronics. So in a couple of years it wont even be possible to compete on those products with the Chinese.
|
|
|
Post by blueshome on Mar 26, 2010 21:50:02 GMT
Whatever the other factors, all being equal, you are not going to sound worse on a better quality instrument. Yes, you can make the best of what you have and it may deliver exactly what you want in terms of sound, but how many folk have had the opportunity to make thorough side by side comparisons between budget instruments, NRP, modern customs, and original Nationals. We should at least be honest enough to admit that what we want and what we have (and can justify spending on) are not always the same. It's the best till the best comes along.
|
|
|
Post by geoff on Mar 26, 2010 22:50:56 GMT
Right now, I face this choice:
A. Slightly blemished (no big deal) modern National Vintage Steel curved back tricone
B. Perfect or blemished MM/Busker
Any thoughts are welcome. I can't succeed Googling what such National Tricone costs new in the shops...
|
|