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Post by lewiscohen on Jun 4, 2009 9:37:18 GMT
If the situation is such that I can't mic up, then it's time to bring out an electric and stop pretending that it's an acoustic gig. Interesting point, that. I recall Bob Long's slideshow at the Weenie Campbell weekend from his recent trip to Mississippi and how it showed virtually everybody down there playing electrics on gigs, even if they were playing solo "acoustic-style" material. Don't know about you, but the irony of a bunch of people sat in a hotel in the New Forest surrounded by 1930's instruments looking at slides of people in the Mississippi Delta playing chinese-made Epiphones made me chuckle. Sorry to deviate from the topic!
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Post by andys on Jun 4, 2009 11:23:59 GMT
I have never heard a pickup on an acoustic guitar that left the instrument sounding like an acoustic guitar. This doesn't mean that the sounds produced were all bad, although many were, just different. Thats my approach too. For quieter intimate gigs, or solo stuff mics are fine, but get to volume, drummers, etc, and you have to use different systems which while more feedback repressing, do have a different tonality. I put magnetic pickups on my acoustics because I like the sound they give. My reso pictured above doesnt sound like a true perfect resonator thru an amp, it sounds like a resonator with a magnetic pickup on it. My acoustic doesnt sound like a true perfect acoustic because it sounds like an acoustic with a magnetic pickup on it. Then again, often the reason why I am amp-ing up them in the first place is often because I am putting them through an effect of some sort anyway. Probably courting controversy here, but 90% of the audience are happy if you have a good clear, reasonably accurate tone out of whatever guitar your using, that isnt cutting their ears off with harshness, or muffling stuff with bass, or worse drowning everything in feedback. Its mainly us musicians that get picky over tone, an audience comes to a gig, for many other reasons than hearing the perfect tone from a player. Thats not to say we as musicians shouldnt do all we can in the quest for good sound and tone, but I dont think theres going to be a right or a wrong way for any given situation, and getting good acoustic sound at volume is always going to involve some kind of compromise. As long as that compromise doesnt stifle your playing, creativity or performance, its ok as far as I'm concerned.
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Post by Michael Messer on Jun 4, 2009 20:34:40 GMT
I hope I can explain this without digging myself into a hole!
My problem with plugging in acoustic and resonator guitars is not just about the sound, it is also and mainly about the headspace of the player that changes when an acoustic instrument is plugged in.
When an acoustic or resonator guitar is plugged in it becomes an electric guitar and therefore is played differently to an acoustic. The stronger and more direct the signal coming from your guitar is, will reduce the amount of energy and power needed to create a powerful sound. So instead of playing with power and projection, the player just turns up the volume.
I am only speaking for myself here, but that to me defeats the object of playing an acoustic instrument. At that point an electric guitar with magnetic pickups will sound much better, which is what Andy, Pertti, Phil and one or two other people have already said.
Okay....that's me done!!!
Shine On Michael.
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Post by blueshome on Jun 4, 2009 21:17:26 GMT
Agree entirely Michael.
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Post by andys on Jun 4, 2009 21:49:53 GMT
Great thread, and to back what Michael says, I put my magnetic pickup equipped resonators into my Vox DA5, into a Valve Jnr, into a speaker cab, and made an hours worth of self-indulgent racket earlier this evening. Great fun, but definately not acoustic.
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Post by Michael Messer on Jun 5, 2009 7:09:57 GMT
.....In addition to my posts on this thread; my comments about keeping the foldback monitor speakers at low volume is also related to this different headspace that I was talking about. In other words; if my foldback monitor is overpowering my acoustic/resonator guitar and my voice, I can no longer hear the acoustic sound and therefore once again I end up in this 'unreal sound' situation which inhibits my playing.
A musician does not need to be loud to capture the attention of a roomful of people.
Shine On Michael.
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Post by lewiscohen on Jun 6, 2009 12:58:35 GMT
Another approach..... I saw Steve James last night and he played standing up, singing and playing into a single large diaphragm Rode NT1a condenser mic, standing about 18 inches to 2 feet back from it. Really great sound and he was able to be quite free in his movement without dropping in level. He was playing without foldback but given that the PA speakers were behind him I was struck by the absence of feedback issues. Definitely an approach I'll be exploring for solo gigs.
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Post by Blues Pertti on Jun 6, 2009 15:34:25 GMT
Hi, Things you are saying Michael.... I think they are true. I have been many times confused with my playing with guitar amp. Guitar just behaves differently and so do I. But anyway... it has been fun . For me worst case in small gigs seem to be that I don't clearly hear my own playing.....that is frightening.... Regards Pertti
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Post by blueshome on Jun 6, 2009 17:07:56 GMT
We got Steve James to do the sound at last year's Bluesweek student concert. With Steve's Rode mic and a couple of C1000's set as a wide stereo pair, we were able to cover a large playing area so that we got great sound for soloists up to groups of 5 or 6 players without messing around trying set up for the 20+ acts playing that evening.
The only drawback to this method was that it did emphasise the deficiencies of some guitars in the tone department and also weaknesses in singing were more evident than with close miking. Further, it appeared some folk seemed to need the security of having a mic close by (maybe we should have set up a dummy).
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Post by snakehips on Jun 6, 2009 19:25:21 GMT
Hi there !
Who here has gigged their reso guitars using the Bose L1 sound system ? My bandmate and I went halfers on one and we love it. He has magnetic pickups on his resos, piezos in his wooden guitars. I have Highlanders in almost all my Nationals.
The Bose L1 7-foot speaker column sits at the back of the stage and works as a "front of house" PA and "monitors" as well, without any feedback (unless you really try !). It gives a really natural sound. You don't need to set it LOUD, just a large lounge/room volume, as the sound is the same volume EVERYWHERE ! Weird ! Thus, you can hear what you are doing really well if you just mic up. We use our pickups at the moment (with AKG C1000s condensor mics while we get confident with the system) - but can see us just mic'ing up for smaller venues. Expensive but great.
One reason I went for Highlander pickups is that years back, I saw the duo (from Newcastle/Gateshead/Bolden area) - the Hokum Hotshots (just celebrated their 40th year gigging together), and one of them, Jim Murray, had a vintage Style "O" at the gig and I was convinced his sound through the PA must have been a microphone - as it sounded great - really natural. I couldn't see a mic though. I cornered him after the gig and asked him. He told me he used Highlanders. He uses a different pre-amp though - not the Highlander one it comes with.
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Post by Michael Messer on Jun 7, 2009 9:08:44 GMT
I agree about the Rode NT1, but I don't think that particular mic is good enough for the job as the sound is a little thin. Lots of bluegrass and old timey bands use that method of mic'ing these days, but unless a really good mic is used the sound is thin. The best I have heard in recent years was Blue Highway & Del McCoury. Both bands used a Neumann condenser and one SM57 to boost the sound when the soloists walked forward.
Having said that, I would take the Rode NT1 any day over a DI'd acoustic guitar!
Shine On Michael.
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Post by Michael Messer on Jun 8, 2009 18:18:11 GMT
At the weekend Robin & I had a look at some Lace Sensor magnetic pickups. Both designed for resonator guitars; one is a single coil and the other is a humbucker.
We only did a quick test, but they are both pretty good. The humbucker had more power and a fatter sound, which is what one would expect from that type of pickup. I thought it was a good sound and an acceptable way of amplifying a resonator guitar with a magnetic pickup.
Shine On Michael.
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Post by robn on Jun 8, 2009 21:17:27 GMT
I found a little time over the weekend to carry on testing pick-ups, as it is something we are asked about all the time As Michael says, the Lace Dobro Sensor (single coil) and Lace Ultra Slim Acoustic Sensor work OK with phosphor bronze string sets. They are the best in terms of balance we have so far tested. The single coil is too high for most reso guitars and has some single coil noise (as you would expect) so good grounding is essential. It is quite bright (again typical single coil) and seems well balanced for phosophor bronze strings as long as you can mount it away from the strings a little. It supposedly comes in a round neck and squareneck version - I have tested both and except for the height of the adhesive pad, which you will want to change anyway, they are the same pickup (£120 UK RRP) The humbucker is streets ahead of the single coil in terms of quality of tone and build - but the price reflects this(£180 UK RRP). It seems pretty well balanced for PB strings, again you just need to back it off the strings a little. Unfortunately, it is just a little too tall to be a universal fit on reso guitars - which is a shame as it is a good pick-up. Both Lace pick-ups are bass boomy with nickel string sets. For nickel strings the Flatbucker is the best mag p/u I have tested (£198 UK RRP) We have spent a small fortune on various pick-ups lately and had many, many hours of open guitar surgery The results so far are: a) Use a mic' wherever possible - it's the best for natural reso tone and is actually a far more practical and usable option than most musicians imagine it to be. I watched Michael work a very noisy pub on Friday night with two house mic's (voice and reso guitar) into a pretty crappy p/a - 2 mins to set-up and no sound check. He got a clean, punchy sound that was perfectly balanced and way, way better than those players who plugged in that night. b) Internal peizo - the jury is out on this one. Generally, they need a lot of EQ, they can be tricky to fit as small changes in position, mounting material and mounting pressure make a very big difference to how the peizo sounds, and they are not particularly feedback resistant unless they have a lot of (expensive) electronics on board. Most are no more "natural" sounding than a mag p/u - many are far worse! c) Surface mounted mag - A good option if you want to colour your tone or if you have to plug in to a guitar amp line input (ie. an input that will not take a mic'). Watch out for string balance as some are not too good in that department - and not all models of pick-up will necessarily fit your reso. Mag pick-ups are slightly microphonic so they do amplify some body/cone tone not just string vibration. Robin
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2009 10:31:20 GMT
Greetings My first reso was a vintage wooden body with an Artec piezo fitted.I ran this through a Fender Acoustasonic amp.Did not sound too bad,but did I know any better?I got hold of a Zoom A2 1u acoustic effects pedal.That plugged in on the Ry Cooder preset changed things. Next came a Vintage Tricone,I stuck an Ashworth Pro transducer in found the place it worked best and continued with the Fender,but not the Zoom. Finally I get a National Delphi,which has a Fishman already fitted.To go with this I purchase an AER Compact 60. Every guitar that I own sounds good through this,no pedals required. However,I did have to try it with the Shure SM57.And of course it did give me the best sound with all three resos. So now I have enough gear to juggle about with at gigs.The mic up is fine at small venues which are generally quite.For larger or noisier places I stick with the Delphi straight through the AER. I guess it is always going to be compromise for me. cheers John
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Post by bluesdude on Jun 11, 2009 19:49:33 GMT
8-)Hi, I went through a time when I had them Barcus Berry pickups on two guitars mixed with a 57, but now I'm in a duo and more than a mic is just over the top,Nationals mic so easy,I can't understand why they can't be heard over a noisy bar crowd? Bars are noisy here in Montreal and just the 57 works great! The problem I have is with my flat-top,to get a decent volume appraoching the reso's the mic feeds back,this is just for bars and such,cafés and halls are OK, (its an old Kay) What I use now is a Shatten pickup stuck under the top, mixed with the mic my problems are over,I only use this for a bar type gig though, I agree with Michael about the dynamics changing to an electrics when plugged in,I had just had this same discussion with John Hammond jr. to combat this I shut off the monitors so's I kinda hear the sound coming out of the guitar! when using the Kay with PU. Ken Hamm over here in Canada gets a good sound out of his Duo with a Shatten PU mixed with a mic, but he uses some custom made tube pre-amp and it sounds real good,He's a real dynamic player and it really comes across when he performs! Kenny,
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