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Post by Adam on Oct 14, 2004 16:19:49 GMT
Just bought a Vintage AMG-2 tricone and though it's lovely I'm having a few teething problems. One of the cones seems to make a nasty buzzing noise. The best way I can describe it is like the noise a loudspeaker makes when the cone is damaged, a sort of farty noise. Initially the guitar buzzed and rattled like nobody's business, but I isolated most of the noise to the tailpiece, popped a bit of fabric under it and it's cured. Problem is that now all I can hear is this cone noise. I've read somewhere that they take a little while to bed in, is this true? Or is it that one of the cones is damaged and needs replacing? Any help would be much appreciated.
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Post by LouisianaGrey on Oct 14, 2004 21:28:20 GMT
All I can really tell you is that kind of "comb and paper" noise is always a cone problem. You often get it on single cones if there isn't enough break angle over the bridge, or if the biscuit is loose or rubbing against the coverplate. You can even get it from damaged string slots on the bridge.
Resonator guitars do bed in with time, but they should never make horrible noises (the guy playing them might, but that's a different problem).
Have you had the lid off? It may just be that the cone isn't seated properly on its shelf or that the T piece isn't seated properly on the top of the cone. Worst case scenario is cone damage, in which case you have the perfect excuse to put in some National cones and make the guitar sound better than before!
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Post by Adam on Oct 15, 2004 8:09:38 GMT
Great, thank you. I was a bit worried about taking the top off, as it seems like a skilled job and I don't want to screw up the intonation. However I'll have a look and probably be back for more advice later....
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Post by rickS on Oct 15, 2004 10:03:15 GMT
I've seen references elsewhere to paper gaskets being used in older National tricones, in order to alleviate the problem of cone buzz - anyone have any info/experience in this, as it might pertain to this thread?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2004 11:19:51 GMT
Hi Adam I bought an AMG3 recently (see 'Where can I buy an Ebony Bridge?' thread). I love mine but like yours it does need attention to get rid of the bugs and improve the sound. Mine came with light gauge strings which did not have sufficient tension to hold the T-bridge onto the cones, hence a rattle. I changed the strings for a heavier gauged Newtone MM National 16 gauge set and this greatly improved the sound and seated the cones down, so no rattle now. While the strings were off I removed the triplate cover and then inspected the bridge and cones. The T-bridge lifts off and the cones are loose. Take care, they are delicate! One cone had a dented 'nose' which pressed out easily. The other problem is the wooden 'Maple' bridge inset which is not Maple, is loose and will not therefore transmit sound efficiently. This should be a tight fit and I am going to replace mine soon. Be careful when reassembling. I only put on the 1st and 6th strings initially so that I could move the Bridge assembly to the correct position before putting the rest of the strings on. Ping the strings at the 12th fret then fret and play the note. It should be the same. If your cones are damaged I suggest you go for the full upgrade while you can and replace the cones with Nationals, the bridge with a bone version and get a proper Maple or ebony capped bridge.
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Post by Adam on Oct 15, 2004 15:37:42 GMT
Right then. Firstly thank you all for your help, so difficult to find good information out there. The guitar already has "fairly" heavy strings on it (standard 13s) that the shop fitted for me, though I will probably fit some newtone ones soon. I bit the bullet and took the coverplate off and one of the cones (thin aren't they!) has a small hole/dent on its rim. I think this may have been caused by a screw head that pokes out of the surface on which the cones seat. Is this likely to affect the sound? Also with the Bridge t-bar thing fitted into the cones they do not seat completely flat. Again, does this matter? Once again thank you for all your help.
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Post by Richard on Oct 15, 2004 16:21:51 GMT
Yes, it does! But are you saying it's the T-bar that does not contact all three cones properly or is there something else ? The "standard 13" strings you mention are too light to make the resonator system actually work as TriconeJohn quite rightly says.. so nip out and get a set of MMs 15 or 16 National strings. The condition\cut of the maple (sic) bridge makes a huge difference to the sound so if the strings look as though they are ratling around the botton of a drain pipe as compared to a stitting in neatly cut V then that is not going help. We await the next installment ...
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Post by MM on Oct 15, 2004 16:33:10 GMT
Hi Rick, Adam and everyone else,
I am writing something about cone buzz, rattle'n'hum which I will post on the forum when it is complete. I get so many questions about this problem, especially relating to the cheaper instruments. Read my post about this on "Where can I buy an ebony bridge" as a starter.
Back in the dark days of the 1970s & 80s, the only way I knew to stop cone-rattle was to spend four hours on the phone to Mark Makin discussing the ins-and-outs of cone-rattle in the late twentieth century, then get in my car at around 11pm armed with my National Tricone and drive to the outskirts of Nottingham (2.5 hours from where I live) where Mark & I would spend all night poking around inside various Tricones looking for the answer. The next morning after numerous cups of coffee & rounds of toast, we would start again poking & prodding our Nationals to get rid of the buzzes & rattles. There were no spares available, no Internet, no Brozman Bible, no articles or books on the subject, just bits of information & knowledge that we picked up along the way. I don't mean to sound like an old timer here, but if you own a resophonic guitar you have to learn how to keep it on the road. They all buzz & rattle occasionally, it's the nature of the beast!
I am writing some stuff about getting rid of these noises which I will publish it on this forum very soon. Meanwhile, Adam, before you spend money on spares and new cones, just try to get a feel for how your Tricone actually works......trial & error....it's the best way to learn.
Keep in touch, Good luck with your exploration! Shine On, Michael.
(And BTW >>Please feel free to write and ask any question about this stuff. If I can't help or don't have the time, there are a lot of visitors to this guestbook who really do have a good understanding of all this. Thanks everyone for being part of this community & advising Adam).
In addition to the article I am writing on cone-rattle for this forum, I would recommend you read pages 243/244 & 245 of Bob Brozman's book. There can be no question about this man's knowledge of National guitars and maintaining them.
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Post by Adam on Oct 18, 2004 7:51:18 GMT
What I mean is the cones don't seat flat in the "shelf". Great forum Michael, I'll sign up as a proper member, when I'm not sneaking the odd reply in instead of working! I feel better about taking the guitar apart now, I'm fairly handy and tend to want to know how things work usually, but with guitars there is a tendancy for the experts to frighten me...
Anyone in the south of England? I'm going to see Bob Brozman in Brighton on Thursday, perhaps I should pester him about my guitar!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2004 13:38:40 GMT
Hi Adam et al As Michael says, prod, look and learn before you put your hand in your pocket again. The 'shelf' that supports your cones does not appear to be flat. It should be. All the cones have to lie in the same plane for the proper transmission of sound to all of them via the T-bridge. Can you check this 'shelf' with a straight edge? If it is not flat then it is on with your thinking cap and explore ways to remedy this. It might be simply a case of getting an exchange instrument if it is still under guarantee, as it sounds like a manufacturing fault. Also there should not be any screws sticking up to damage a cone rim, this may be part of the same problem. So you're seeing Bob Brozman! Enjoy! Tell us about it.
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Post by Richard on Oct 18, 2004 19:31:25 GMT
Not wish to be pedantic, but I will .. that sentence is still a little ambiguous - so is it the seating in the guitar or the actual cone which is not flat? If it's the cone you can carefully and cunningly press it flat, but if it's the seating I would be inclined to take it back from whence it came and see wot they say As for asking BB, well from what I've heard unless you actually own a National or, better still bought one from him you have little hope since the man lives and breathes Nationals. Having seen his 'one man show' it is quite amazing but seems really designed to be a showcase for the aforsaid Nationals and to show off his not inconsiderable talent - let us know what you think.
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Post by Michael Messer on Oct 18, 2004 22:46:43 GMT
I have been watching this thread develop & as I said in an earlier post, I am writing chapter & verse about buzz-rattle'n'hum in National Tricones & single cone guitars, but Adam's buzzing Vintage Tricone has got me thinking and wanting to write.
First of all, there is every chance that with care, patience & understanding, you can get a Vintage AMG Tricone guitar sounding pretty good. I do not believe the answer lies in buying upgrades and new cones, but in learning how to set up and maintain your guitar.
The whole subject of upgrading these guitars with high quality bridges & National cones really is a debatable point. (And this is the forum for that debate!) As to whether it improves them, or 'changes' them. I have only heard of ebony bridges being talked about very recently. I have always believed boxwood or maple were the right thing for the job. In the old days I always used a wooden ruler to make a new bridge (that is boxwood). I never knew otherwise. I have never seen a National Tricone guitar with anything other than boxwood, maple or bone for the bridge.
Back to rattles'n'buzzes - the next point to consider is that an original National or any high quality Tricone is made of German Silver or Brass. AMG Tricones are made of thin sheet steel. The next consideration is that the sound-well/pan in a National is an absolutely integral part of the guitar and to make one that is rigid and does its job properly is no easy task. These guitars are really not very sturdy and that is the root of all the problems.
There are ways to set them up to work well - the pit-props/mushroom posts need to be doing their job, possibly add one or two to help support the pan. Because there is bound to be some movement I would try cutting a sheet of newspaper or some masking tape and putting it on the pan, this acts as a gasget between cone and pan and can help reduce buzzes. It does however come at a price, any gasgets, felt or paper glue will reduce volume, tone & sustain.
Of course there are my own brand of MM National Guitar Strings by Newtone - 16 to 59 set will help to hold everything down. Don't tune them above open G or D.
On some of these guitars the neck angle is completely wrong and that too can seriously cause things to be unstable. That needs to be looked at.
In my opinion the single cone Vintage AMGs are more successful than the Tricones. Tricones are such a complicated piece of machinery, they really are. The luthiers that I recommend to work on resophonic guitars, Dave King & Mike Lewis, both say to me that even after all these years and so many guitars, that Tricones are hard work. They can spend anything from one hour to one week setting up a Tricone.
I was once contacted by the technician at the importers of Vintage AMG - he called to ask if I would give him some tips about setting up these guitars. He told me that he spends between five & ten minutes on each guitar and then it is off in its box to the high street. I asked him what he knew about resophonic guitars and his answer was that he had some basic guitar repair knowledge. I was unable to advise him.
My advice to Adam has not changed - Adam, you have to work with your Tricone to get it sounding good. If however you think there is a defect in the manufacturing, then take it back to the store and get a replacement.
Without seeing your guitar it really is difficult for me to say what exactly is wrong, but if I were you I would look at all the points I have mentioned and see if you can cure the problem.
In addition to the above - last night I picked up my 1930 National Tricone and it had a slight buzz! This was almost certainly due to climate changes, they always buzz when it gets cooler & damp. I just leave them alone, say one or two prayers and usually by the next morning the buzz has gone.
I am not anti these budget priced resophonic guitars, I think it is great that eveyone can get on board. I am just trying to be as honest as I can. I have always done that in my reviews & observations of guitars. Don't forget that Bob Brozman, Mike Lewis, Dave King, Mark Makin, Don Young, Colin McCubbin, myself & a couple of other researcher/collectors have literally been around thousands of Nationals, spent far too many years staring at them, discussing them, playing them & repairing them and that is how we gathered our knowledge. It is a deep understanding that did not happen overnight.
Good luck with your guitar Adam, let us know how you get on. You know what is more important than everything I have said .....PLAY THE THING!!!
Shine On, Michael.
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Post by LouisianaGrey on Oct 19, 2004 9:52:13 GMT
"I was once contacted by the technician at the importers of Vintage AMG ........ He told me that he spends between five & ten minutes on each guitar ....I asked him what he knew about resophonic guitars and his answer was that he had some basic guitar repair knowledge."
I find that scary but not surprising. In my experience, having done a lot of upgrades, the setup of Far Eastern resonator guitars, neck angles, bridge heights etc. can vary wildly - not to mention the construction defects that occur in a proportion of them. You can never be quite sure what you are going to find when you take the coverplate off. I've never seen one yet that had the string slots cut straight, for a start!
I've mainly dealt with single-cone guitars and personally I'm an advocate of upgrades, although the cones they use these days are better quality than they used to be so the difference in sound is not as marked. To my ears the import cones are middly in tone, and a National cone brings out both the bottom and top end of the sound. An ebony-capped bridge is a bit brighter and punchier than maple or boxwood so it's very much a matter of what sound you're looking for. I've found American Cherry has a similar sort of tone.
All of this is terribly subjective, and resonator guitars are very complex beasts. The more I work on them the more I realise I have much to learn (as Obi-Wan would say). You certainly can't make assumptions that what works on one will work on a different one. Each style has its own set of foibles.
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Post by Adam on Oct 19, 2004 12:29:26 GMT
This is great, once again thank you all for the advice. I think I could have tried 100 guitar shops without getting advice of this quality. I think I have isolated the problem to a damaged cone, it has a slight nick in its edge and won't sit flat in any of the cone "holes". Michael, thanks for the encoragement, as I said previously I'm technically minded but it's easy to be put off taking the thing to bits. I worked in bicycle shops for years and my two pieces of advice to most customers were; learn how it works and ride the thing. So as a resonator novice it's good to have the same treatment! Pete, can you make me a new nut then (slightly higher with better slots)? do I need to send you mine or can I send you some dimensions?
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Post by Michael Messer on Oct 19, 2004 17:24:33 GMT
Thanks for your response Pete. Via Adam’s buzzing Tricone we are developing an interesting thread about budget priced Tricones & single cone National copies. Keep ‘em coming!
Adam, I am glad you are managing to sort out the problem with your guitar. Make sure the cones are nice and flat in the pan, try running a biro around the rims to help bed them in. Make sure they are nice and snug in the T bridge, do this before placing them in the guitar. String it up and test it without the coverplate. Once it is right – very carefully loosen the strings and without moving anything put the coverplate, tailpiece & strings back on. Use an old set of strings for the set-up, as they are useless once you have slackened and removed them. When you put it back together you might find that a prayer or two will be quite helpful. If it isn’t right ……you just have to start again! Welcome to the wonderful world of Tricones.
>>>When stringing the guitar be careful and don’t tune up to pitch until they are all on, otherwise it will pull everything out of line. When re-stringing any resophonic guitar in normal use – always change and tune to pitch one-string-at-a-time.
A while ago I was at the London Resonator Centre and was presented with two identical Vintage AMG2 Tricones; one had been upgraded apparently with National Reso-Phonic cones, a new nut & new bridge (I believe it was Philippe Dubreuille’s work), and the other was an all original factory parts instrument that was set up properly. There was no question whatsoever about the differences, they definitely sounded different, but for me neither sounded better than the other, and without looking inside I was unable to tell which was which.
The problem with fitting National Reso-Phonic or any other high quality cones into these guitars, is that the pan & the body are unstable and therefore the better cones don’t really make enough difference. This is because they are unable to resonate correctly. The expensive cones will certainly have a different sound to the cheap Korean ones, so they should…one set retails at approx’ £150 and the other just a few pounds. But because of the enormous differences that we have already discussed in this thread, I don’t think that spending that kind of money on upgrading a budget Tricone is worth the expense. The good AMG Tricones that I have heard, when they are well set up and working correctly, sound absolutely fine. Sure, they don’t sound like a 1929 National Tricone or a brand new National Reso-Phonic, but I don’t think they are ever going to sound like those instruments.
I should add that I really do believe these new budget National copies (Vintage & AXL) are the best we’ve seen to date. You just have to give them a little TLC when you get one.
One last thought >a question: Are National Reso-Phonic cones readily available as spares for anybody to buy. I thought NatRes only supplied dealers and owners of their guitars and vintage Nationals, but maybe my information is out of date?
Shine On, Michael.
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