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Post by Michael Messer on Jul 18, 2008 14:43:58 GMT
THIS IS NOT AN ADVERT - I THOUGHT IT MIGHT BE INTERESTING FOR FORUM MEMBERS www.martingross.com/capo.htmHere is an email from Martin: (I asked Martin if the capos are one size, or whether they can be made for various string heights) Hi Michael, thanks a lot for posting and your interest in my capos. In fact my capos are one size, but you have to select the right leather pad that goes under the capo to fit the individual distance between the fingerboard and the strings of your instrument. The capo is $ 99.- + $ 15.- shipping costs. I know that is a lot of money for a dobro capo but each capo is custom hand made. At the moment I am experimenting making my capos out of brass. I think brass has got a better warmer sound. So if you want one of my designed capos I suggest to wait a little until I have made some experiance with the brass capos. cheers - Martin ----------------------------- Shine On Michael.
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Post by tark on Jul 19, 2008 13:40:33 GMT
Hi Michael,
Thats an interesting capo. I don't know much about squareneck guitars. I was under the impression that quite a few capos for squareneck only clamp to the strings and use the principle of the inertia of fairly large block of metal to define the speaking length of the strings. I think the Beard Dobro capo works that way, although I know Shubb make a Dobro capo that clamps the strings on top of a block that is then clamped to the neck. The trouble with this is that it only works for a particular string height. Does the capo you show also clamp to the neck or is the bottom block just resting on the fretboard? Presumably the leather pad mentioned is selected for the right height. Also I guess the front lip of the capo is really right over the fret marker, not a little behind it as it might look in the photo.
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Post by Michael Messer on Jul 19, 2008 14:07:32 GMT
Hi Tark,
Yes it is an interesting and clever idea. I like the fact that it looks like it sits tight under the strings making a 'nut' so everything is solid. What I don't like about the Beard and one or two other brands, is that they just clamp around the strings. When you play with those capos on, everything shakes & vibrates, there is no anchor. I use the Shubb Dobro capo. It is very good, but like all square-neck capos, it has its downfalls. It is like putting the neck of your guitar in a vice, but it does hold everything firm.
Your question to me is what I asked Martin. I would like to find a capo to use on my square-neck Tricones. For square-neck guitars the strings are very low and even the Beard does not fit between the strings and fretboard. I think in Martin's capo the leather pads are the height adjusters.
He is certainly on to something.
Shine On Michael
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Post by robn on Jul 19, 2008 21:46:17 GMT
I think that there is still plenty of room for innovation in the squareneck capo market. I have a shubb, which is OK to fix but looses a little tone on my dobro and it needs a bit of fiddling to get a clean tone across all strings. And I have a GM, which fixes to the strings - beautifully engineered and solid tone but you have to fiddle to get it in the right place. The Shubb is the easiest to use and to snap on at gigs. I prefer the sound of the GM and use that where I have more time. The semi-floating design that Martin has made looks interesting and very well made. I'd like to try the Beard next and perhaps the Flux. One things for certain, there's no definitive answer yet! So all you budding engineers - get out there inventing stuff
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Post by Michael Messer on Jul 20, 2008 9:26:20 GMT
I would like to see a capo for square-neck Tricones and Weissenborn type guitars.
Shine On Michael
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Post by fredkinbom on Jul 20, 2008 11:58:35 GMT
I have both the Beard and Scheerhorn Flux capo, and they are both "good compromises" - they do the job of transposing your tuning but the sound is nowhere near as resonant as without a capo. Of the two, I prefer the Scheerhorn Flux as it's very easy to put on and remove, and easier than the Beard to align with the flush Weissenborn fret. Seeing the design above gave me the idea to put leather below it to make contact with the fretboard. I tried capoing high up and pressing the capo down to make contact with the fretboard, and the sound was much more resonant. I have a broken leather luggage tag that might do the job. The type of tailor made capo Martin Gross makes looks like a solid and great solution. Fred
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Post by fredkinbom on Jul 20, 2008 12:26:02 GMT
The experiments with the LLTHRSFC (Leather Luggage TagĀ® Hot Rodded Scheerhorn Flux Capo) were brief and of mixed success. ;D On the second fret, pictured above, the sound was improved with somewhat better sustain. I have written a song with the capo on the 7th fret though, and in this position the sound was not improved - quite the oppostite, sustain on the wound strings was lessened/dampened by the luggage tag. I might cut a strip of it to use when capoing on the lower frets though, because it is, as others have mentioned above, nice with a non-bouncing capo for hammer-ons and pull-offs. Cheers, Fred
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Post by tark on Jul 20, 2008 12:35:21 GMT
With lap style guitars it really is the height of the strings above the board that is the problem for capos. I think that is why some designs have gone with the floating inertia block. The problem with that is that you need a very heavy block with low internal damping to keep the maximum energy in the strings. The alternative is to clamp to the strings and the neck which is where string height and variation in string height becomes a problem. I don't think using leather pads as spacers is an ideal solution because they introduce an acoustically deadening material between the capo and the neck. I think the spacers have to be custom made in brass or some similar material. Having to use different spacers for different guitars means the capo can't easily be used on any guitar. I suppose you could have a bottom plate spaced from the capo body by adjustable screws.
I wonder if a movable nut would work.
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Post by Michael Messer on Jul 20, 2008 12:46:35 GMT
Dave King & I designed a capo which was basically a movable nut with a clamp. This was designed to fit square-neck Tricone & Weissenborn guitars, but we never actually got beyond a prototype which still requires one or two improvements.
The problem with a product like this is that the market is small, so spending on design & production costs has to be limited.
I have always hoped that someone else might come up with a similar idea and all I have to do is buy one! So far....no such luck, but Martin is very close.
Shine On Michael.
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Post by tark on Jul 20, 2008 12:50:13 GMT
Hey Fred, with the Flux capo what is that black material on the upper clamping bar? That also looks like something that would deaden the sound. With a capo on a normal guitar you can use something adsorbent like rubber or leather because the strings are clamped to the fret (non acoustically adsorbent) in front of the capo. On a lap style either both faces of the capo clamping the strings need to be fairly hard and resonant or the clamping bar has to clamp the strings behind a metal ridge or psuedo fret. And of course the leather tag under the capo will also deaden the sound. What you need is a custom height spacer made of bone or something harder. In the long run this wont be too kind to the surface of the 'fretboard'.
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Post by tark on Jul 20, 2008 13:02:36 GMT
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Post by Michael Messer on Jul 20, 2008 15:47:00 GMT
Tark, the one you have found and linked us to is not far away from our design. Kelly Joe Phelps has a similar system which is successful on a round neck with a raided action.
Shine On Michael
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Post by tark on Jul 20, 2008 16:50:10 GMT
Tark, the one you have found and linked us to is not far away from our design. Kelly Joe Phelps has a similar system which is successful on a round neck with a raided action. Shine On Michael Oh OK. You know it seems like a simple approach to me. Maybe it wouldn't be very difficult to make a dual height capo like this out of a rectangular cross section piece of rosewood. You could fit a piece of fret wire (or a bone inlay) to each of two faces and then cut grooves on the opposing faces to drop over the frets/fret lines. You could even make a triangular - 3 alternate heights - one out of rosewood (or other suitable wood) but it would be more work.
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Post by Michael Messer on Jul 21, 2008 14:36:25 GMT
Here are some photos of the square-neck Tricone/Weissenborn capo that Dave King & I worked on. It is a piece of ebony with a bone nut superglued onto it. The bone nut is grooved to slot over a fret and therefore - be in tune! The rest of it is a cheapo stretch-elastic capo. It works pretty well and would work better made of brass. It is made to measure to fit my Tricone, but still pushes the strings up a bit. It could actually take being filed down a fraction. Tark, I realize that this kind of thing is right up your street and would be interested to hear your comments about it. We got this far but never pursued it any further. Shine On Michael
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Post by robn on Jul 21, 2008 18:44:24 GMT
The problem with bone or wood is that it really has to be hand shaped. Plastic or brass would be better from a mass production stand point (just looking at the practicalities here not what's the best design). Plastic makes most sense (if it is the right kind of plastic ) The flip round triangle thing, giving three different sizes on one "nut", is v useful and a cheap design (to mass produce). But you would still need three or four of those triangles (perhaps sold in a set) for all eventualities. These could be colour coded for different sizes and the faces marked with coloured stripes (low, medium and high). If we are talking delrin here - then Ebner is your man! KJP's was even simpler. Bits of wood with a slot for the fret and a channel above the slot to take a short length of drill steel, all held down with a cheap elasticated capo. My Mate Ron knocked up a couple of different size wood inserts for me to fit my acoustic. However, I still can't see many advantages over what's already available on the market - no WOW moments yet in this thread Robin
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