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Post by fredkinbom on Jul 21, 2008 23:22:36 GMT
Here are some photos of the square-neck Tricone/Weissenborn capo that Dave King & I worked on. It is a piece of ebony with a bone nut superglued onto it. The bone nut is grooved to slot over a fret and therefore - be in tune! The rest of it is a cheapo stretch-elastic capo. It works pretty well and would work better made of brass. It is made to measure to fit my Tricone, but still pushes the strings up a bit. It could actually take being filed down a fraction. Tark, I realize that this kind of thing is right up your street and would be interested to hear your comments about it. We got this far but never pursued it any further.     Shine On Michael Michael, I'd be willing to try and expand on your capo idea - just send over the capo along with that Fine Resophonic Tricone it is attached to and I will work on a solution. Should only take a couple of years. ;D Fred |
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Post by Michael Messer on Jul 22, 2008 8:50:31 GMT
Sadly the Tricone does not come with the capo - nice try!!!!
I have to agree with Robin that nothing much has happened in the world of square-neck capos in recent years. Really the most innovative product to hit that market was the Shubb. In fact, the most innovative products to hit the whole capo market in many years have been made by Shubb. I got my first Shubb capo (regular round neck model) in 1983 and it is still absolutely fine - works perfectly.
The capo that Dave & I worked on is okay and is a fairly successful way of capo-ing a Tricone or Weissenborn, but due to the materials it is made of, and some design features, it is not quite there.
Robin, your suggestions about materials would probably not work. The bone & ebony part should be made of brass or steel.
I actually do think that Martin's capo that started this thread is an interesting and workable option.
Shine On
Michael
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Post by tark on Jul 22, 2008 10:49:10 GMT
Hi Michael,
The Messer/King capo looks good. Its simple and can be made in small numbers. It also replicates almost exactly the normal termination of the strings at the nut. I'd be interested to know exactly what the drawbacks of the design are.
I'm not sure if it is better to make the capo out of metal. the advantages of metal are that it has relatively high mass and low internal acoustic damping. So its acoustic impedance is relatively high over a wide range of frequencies, helping to keep more energy in the string up to the highest harmonics. In theory if you clamp a large block of metal firmly onto the strings there is less need to clamp the metal block to the neck (I think this is the way the Beard capo, the capo you show at the start of this thread and to some extent the Flux capo work, although the Flux capo does not look heavy enough). The other approach is to take a lightweight material, like bone, with low internal acoustic damping and to clamp that firmly to the strings AND the neck, as you have done. This way vibrations are transmitted to the neck which provides the high impedance (i.e. it provides a resistance to movement or vibration). Any bits of rubber like clamping sleeves or elastic straps have high internal damping and will adsorb energy form the strings, turning it into heat.
Using bone, as your design does, replicates the normal nut. What bone tends to do is progressively damp the very highest harmonics because its impedance falls at those high frequencies. The impedance of metals at high frequencies tends to be higher so those very high harmonics may be preserved. This is not necessarily a good thing because the presence of those very high harmonics can make things sound out of tune.
The biggest difference with your moving bone capo would be that the down force is not as great as the fixed nut. Some people think that a greater angle over the nut (as with the difference between a slotted and a paddle headstock), resulting in more down force, equates to greater sustain but, beyond a certain point, I can't see why that should be so.
The problem with capos is that all of them increase string tension slightly and drive the tuning sharp. With a capo for squareneck you might compensate for this a little by offsetting the string contact point to fret groove distance, although it depends on how much string clamping/deflection you have behind the capo.
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Post by djsbluesbar on Jul 22, 2008 13:09:19 GMT
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Post by Michael Messer on Jul 22, 2008 13:18:28 GMT
Hi DJ,  I have used a Shubb Dobro capo on my Holoubek Dobro for the past seven years. It is a very good capo. To get a clean sound you need to clamp it VERY tight on the neck. It is like a vice. Once in position the guitar sounds just as good as it does without the capo. I would not clamp it on to a hollow neck guitar because it could crush the neck! Shine On Michael. |
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Post by djsbluesbar on Jul 22, 2008 13:28:12 GMT
Hi Michael,
No good on a round neck? the web site says it'l work on some...? I was thinking of modifiying the clamp part to suit my ( or the "blues" ) neck, I dont play lap very often....well a bit more in jams lately, when not blues. My frets are so thin, when i use a standatd capo the action becomes to low, any ideas?
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Post by Michael Messer on Jul 22, 2008 13:48:36 GMT
Hi DJ,
I have never thought of fitting it to a round neck guitar. If the Shubb website says you can, then I guess you can. We all have our own preferences and that is what makes our music individual, but I have never had a problem with the string action being pulled down with a capo. In fact I really like that feel and often prefer to play certain pieces with a capo for that reason. Surely if you fit a capo like the Shubb to a round neck guitar it will no longer be possible to play anything other than slide? (I nearly mis-typed and wrote Slade, but that would have a whole different meaning!)
Shine On
Michael.
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Post by Michael Messer on Jul 22, 2008 14:18:46 GMT
Hi Tark,
Your comments and observations are spot on.
The main problem with our capo is that the bone deadens the tone of the plain strings and no matter how much down-pressure you apply with the capo, it is still dull on the plain strings. That is why I suggested brass or steel. Our capo actually works better if I move the elastic capo back a fret at create more downward pressure, but I don't really like doing that to my lovely Tricone, I feel it is pulling everything too much. Apart from those problems, the capo as a concept is a successful idea. It is pretty much based on the Kelly Joe Phelps capo. I should add that apart from experimenting with it at home, I have never actually used it to play a tune. If I know I am going to need a capo for lap steel guitar playing, I take my Dobro and the Shubb.
Shine On
Michael
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Post by djsbluesbar on Jul 22, 2008 14:52:34 GMT
Hi Michael....again
The shubb has been updated so the "fret" is adjustable in hight, maybe the thread on the shubb site is old and you know this already, I reckon I'm probably being too fussy, trying to fix what isn't broke!!...just wish i could get the same action on the 3rd fret as I do from the nut. I do agree about how pulling the strings closer to the neck using a capo has its advantages and I use one too for these reasons......Guess its the same as the whole fingerpick debate on other threads...keep at it and get used to it. Off on a tangent but, should the neck relief be more on a resonator(14 fret) than on an electric guitar? nothing wrong with a bit of slade!!!....Mamma we're all crazy (about resos) now!
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Post by tark on Jul 22, 2008 15:31:33 GMT
Hi Tark, Your comments and observations are spot on. The main problem with our capo is that the bone deadens the tone of the plain strings and no matter how much down-pressure you apply with the capo, it is still dull on the plain strings. That is why I suggested brass or steel. Our capo actually works better if I move the elastic capo back a fret at create more downward pressure, but I don't really like doing that to my lovely Tricone, I feel it is pulling everything too much. Apart from those problems, the capo as a concept is a successful idea. It is pretty much based on the Kelly Joe Phelps capo. I should add that apart from experimenting with it at home, I have never actually used it to play a tune. If I know I am going to need a capo for lap steel guitar playing, I take my Dobro and the Shubb. Shine On Michael Michael, How interesting. I wonder why the tone on the plains is deader. You would think it might be the same as the tone from the open strings with the normal nut. Are they deader even when using the bar or just when open? Maybe more clamping / down pressure is needed. I'd hesitate to go the complete - strings on metal block route. It would be interesting to try a glass filled synthetic like the Graph Tech Tusq material or try the rosewood or ebony block with a piece of fret wire to support the strings. I think that might be just right. |
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Post by Michael Messer on Jul 22, 2008 15:42:53 GMT
Hi Tark,
I am now wondering if the ebony block is causing problems. It may be too thick and getting in the way of the down pressure? No matter how much down-pressure I apply (even a fret back from the ebony), it does not stop the dullness.
I like the basic idea of tis capo. I think it is simple and effective. A good Tricone/Weissenborn capo would not be a massive seller, but there is a market for it.
Shine On
Michael.
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Post by Michael Messer on Jul 22, 2008 17:14:42 GMT
Hi DJ, If you want a capo that gives you the same string height at the third fret as at the nut, how about a little bone, metal or wood wedge under the strings and clamp the capo to that. Just a mad idea that actually could work, especially on your Slade....I mean Slide numbers  Shine On Michael. |
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Post by djsbluesbar on Jul 22, 2008 17:39:01 GMT
Thanks Michael,
I'l have a few experiments, then let you know....
Thanks again.
Slade on!!
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Post by tark on Jul 23, 2008 2:00:12 GMT
Hi Tark, I am now wondering if the ebony block is causing problems. It may be too thick and getting in the way of the down pressure? No matter how much down-pressure I apply (even a fret back from the ebony), it does not stop the dullness. I like the basic idea of tis capo. I think it is simple and effective. A good Tricone/Weissenborn capo would not be a massive seller, but there is a market for it. Shine On Michael. I see what you mean, the strings behind the bone could be hitting the ebony block. If the dead string problem is due to down pressure you may need to be able to duplicate the angle of the strings behind the nut . The problem then is that applying such a large string deflection will throw the tuning way off whenever the capo is applied. Going by your comments about the Shubb capo having to be clamped really tight I am beginning to think it may be necessary to apply quite a lot of force, either by clamp or down pressure from string angle behind the capo to maintain sustain and tone. I think what is happening is that without enough clamping force the capo is able to move just a little and that soaks up energy from the string. |
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Post by Michael Messer on Jul 23, 2008 8:35:27 GMT
......back to the drawing board  Shine On Michael |
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