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Post by mrstrellisofnwales on Feb 23, 2023 13:59:48 GMT
I’ve played acoustic for 50 years and done minor repairs and mods on most of my guitars. Been playing slide, blues etc on flattops but never on a reso. So recently I snagged an old but quite acceptable, round neck spider wooden reso to play with. One of those 1980’s far east Dobro copies I think. It’s not bad actually, playable, quite loud and acceptable tone- for now anyway. So being new to reso I’ve got a few questions that maybe you guys could answer. Here goes. Firstly the nut. I’m used to a nut being cut to fret height. This is a bit taller. I can get a credit card in at the 3rd fret.Action is otherwise acceptable right now. What’s the effect of lowering the nut slots on performance with slide? More rattle? Secondly the saddle. Looks like rosewood. What’s the effect of changing and how long should a wooden saddle last? Remembering its a spider, does the material have as much effect as it does with a biscuit or even a flattop? Thirdly, strings. I’m happy to go heavy as long as it doesn’t cause problems- do heavy strings cause the same problems that they do on a flattop, ie neck pull, belly, etc or is the build of a reso designed to withstand the extra tension? I’ve got some Newtone MM 15s on order. Too heavy? And lastly, bearing in mind that this is an old copy maybe worth 300 squid, is there much benefit to be had in an upgrade to the cone? Any comments at all would be gratefully received so Thanks in advance. Mrs Trellis of North Wales.
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Post by pete1951 on Feb 23, 2023 16:42:45 GMT
Hi Mrs Trellis, nice to see it’s not just Radio 4 panel shows you write to. . I would recommend you playing the guitar with a capo on the first fret, if you have no trouble playing slide, then the nut can be cut down to the proper level. Some have the nut high ,but it makes fretted notes shape on the low frets, so if your technique will stand it ,cut it down.
Bridge saddles can be made of anything but most player like maple ( or box) best. Some Dobro players use an ebony caped saddle, but some would say solid maple or box sounds better
A proper Dobro or National copy should be ok with 015 Newtone strings, not sure about your guitar, Newtone wound strings are a lower tension than most other strings of the same gauge, so the bottom 4 strings are not as heavy as you might think. Keep an eye on neck straightness after you change strings.l PS: because of the round core, do not cut your strings until they are wound round the string post.
There are several makers of good sounding cones, but this is not something I know much about, I’m sure someone from the forum will post their favourite one. Pete
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Post by mrstrellisofnwales on Feb 23, 2023 18:00:06 GMT
Thank you Pete. That’s exactly the sort of stuff I need to know. Saved me days of trawling through guff on the Internet. From what I can see the guitar is from one of the group of makers in Japan who were around Nagoya making Ibanez/Epiphones etc in the 80s. The finish/binding and hardware certainly look very similar to my my Japanese Epi. I always do mods one change at a time, starting with the simplest -strings and Newtone is local to me so I always try theirs first. Then depending on the result I move on through the easiest fixes. I’ll post results on here. Fabulous forum this is. Mrs Trellis- with regards from Samantha and Sven.
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Post by Michael Messer on Feb 23, 2023 18:24:53 GMT
Hello Mrs Trellis
Welcome to my forum and to our friendly community.
You have been advised well by Pete and you are wise to tread carefully and only do one mod' at a time.
A wood saddle should last almost forever. If yours is rosewood, you should consider changing it to box wood because it is softer and therefore gives a warmer tone.
A good setup and following the advice you are receiving on this forum is a much better way of optimising your guitar than buying a new cone. Having said that, it does depend on what cone and what condition your cone is in.
Another upgrade/tweak worth considering as you go along would be to make sure the spider is performing correctly. There are a few things you can do to great improve the tone, just by making sure the spider is working correctly.
As well as the spider itself, you can loosen or tighten the tension screw in the centre of the cone. This is done with a small screwdriver through the hole in the handrest, That is the reason the hole is there. You do not detune the guitar - with it in tune you unscrew it a couple of turns until the guitar buzzes when you strum it, then you gradually half a turn at a time tighten it until you can strum it without it buzzing. Go too tight and it chokes the sound, go too loose and it buzzes and rattles. BUT....to do this effectively the spider should be levelled on all eight of its feet, so maybe wait for that until you are ready.
15/56 MM strings are designed for the purpose and should help to make your guitar sing.
Now...first things first; can we see some photos of your guitar so we can see for ourselves that we are advising you correctly.
Shine On Michael
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2023 13:22:38 GMT
I’ve played acoustic for 50 years and done minor repairs and mods on most of my guitars. Been playing slide, blues etc on flattops but never on a reso. So recently I snagged an old but quite acceptable, round neck spider wooden reso to play with. One of those 1980’s far east Dobro copies I think. It’s not bad actually, playable, quite loud and acceptable tone- for now anyway. So being new to reso I’ve got a few questions that maybe you guys could answer. Here goes. Firstly the nut. I’m used to a nut being cut to fret height. This is a bit taller. I can get a credit card in at the 3rd fret.Action is otherwise acceptable right now. What’s the effect of lowering the nut slots on performance with slide? More rattle? Secondly the saddle. Looks like rosewood. What’s the effect of changing and how long should a wooden saddle last? Remembering its a spider, does the material have as much effect as it does with a biscuit or even a flattop? Thirdly, strings. I’m happy to go heavy as long as it doesn’t cause problems- do heavy strings cause the same problems that they do on a flattop, ie neck pull, belly, etc or is the build of a reso designed to withstand the extra tension? I’ve got some Newtone MM 15s on order. Too heavy? And lastly, bearing in mind that this is an old copy maybe worth 300 squid, is there much benefit to be had in an upgrade to the cone? Any comments at all would be gratefully received so Thanks in advance. Mrs Trellis of North Wales. I came across this really interesting Zero Fret system for Slide Guitars. It's a Gold tone ZB-24 (ZB-25 is the Blank nut which you can cut to accommodate other types of Slide Guitars like Mohan Veenas) Zero Glide Slide Guitar nut which is about twice the height of a regular Guitar nut so you can play the Guitar w/ a Slide or even so a Bottle neck. The advantage of this Zero Glide nut is it'll enhance the resonance of the Guitar.
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Post by pete1951 on Mar 7, 2023 10:00:19 GMT
I came across this really interesting Zero Fret system for Slide Guitars. It's a Gold tone ZB-24 (ZB-25 is the Blank nut which you can cut to accommodate other types of Slide Guitars like Mohan Veenas) Zero Glide Slide Guitar nut which is about twice the height of a regular Guitar nut so you can play the Guitar w/ a Slide or even so a Bottle neck. The advantage of this Zero Glide nut is it'll enhance the resonance of the Guitar. [/quote]
I have several guitars with zero frets, all of them are (relatively) cheap instruments. Zero frets are a good way to produce a guitar as you get good action at the first fret without having to cut the nut to the correct hight, something that takes time and skill. But enhancing resonance? Why haven’t Martin, Gibson etc gone over to this system, or is this marketing of a zero fret nut?
Pete
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Post by mrstrellisofnwales on Mar 8, 2023 15:56:56 GMT
Well the new strings arrived and I took the opportunity to have a nosey inside the guitar, cleaned a bucket full of dust and fur balls out and tried to figure out how it all works. It was a real eye opener for me- I thought I was quite knowledgeable. Turns out, Nah. There are more variables in the set up than there are for a Yankee bet on the 3rd race at Haydock. So having restrung and reassembled and done Michael’s screw loosening/tightening thing on the saddle, then taking it all apart again cos there were more rattles and buzzes than a nursery full of wasps ( fixed eventually) I have a couple more questions. I’ve got it sounding like a resonator now, albeit a 1980s cheapo. Firstly, should the cone/spider fit snugly into the body cavity or should there be a bit of room around the edge. Mine was snug before cleaning, free afterwards. Secondly, flat top and arch top players seem obsessed with break angle over the saddle, but with the reso there’s hardly any so what’s that all about? The hump on the tailpiece obviously lessens that angle. Thirdly, how come the saddle isn’t compensated, or at least set at a slight angle? Maybe it should- Dunno? And lastly, the saddle on my guitar looks like a home made piece of mahogany or even teak. Anyone know of a supply of boxwood I can buy? And another lastly, the head on that screw in the middle of the saddle looks chewed. Are they all the same and if so where to get one. I searched through a million screws in my shed and had nothing like it. Thanks in advance for the great replies this great forum will come up with. Mrs Trellis. PS - My 2p on zero frets. Great for 12 strings, not so sure for 6.
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Post by pete1951 on Mar 9, 2023 8:14:44 GMT
1)Space around cone. Most instruments will have a little ‘wriggle room’. When taking resos apart it’s good practice to mark the cone and body with pen, cones can ‘bed in’ and take on any imperfections of the well, best if they go back where they have sat for some time. 2)Brake angles are small on resos. Too much chokes the sound and can damage the cone ,too little and the cone can rattle. Difficult to say if yours is set up correctly without seeing it. 3) The best sound probably comes from having all the strings in a straight line in the centre of the bridge. That said many do angle the cone/spider and file a little compensation for the largest plain strings. Dobros were designed for slide ,which need no compensation. 4) Box wood. There are some old threads about box on the forum, maple is a close second and most repair people will give you some for free Regards to you and Mr Trellis Pete
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Post by mrstrellisofnwales on Mar 9, 2023 12:01:41 GMT
Thanks Pete, great advice and hints. I’m now getting the hang of how this guitar works. When I’ve sorted out a new saddle and cone adjustment screw I think I’ll leave it there and relegate this guitar to the camper van when I get something better. That will have to wait until I’ve travelled a bit and tried some out - if I ever find a shop with a few resonators to try that is. I should have got a resonator years ago, it’s brought my playing a new lease of life. Unfortunately Mr Trellis isn’t around now, having been sent packing following a Swanee whistle and Kazoo duet in a Prestatyn bus depot, but thanks for the sentiment anyway. Regards, Mrs Trellis.
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Post by mitchfit on Mar 9, 2023 23:15:20 GMT
Mrs Trellis,
can see validity in the opinion that a metal nut would/might make a non-reso acoustic guit sound tinny compared to bone. yet have played a friend's strat that came stock with an LSR [metal roller nut] and didn't notice any difference between chords played with open strings included or barre chords.
that said, both of my resonator guits get played with a brass slide. spider bridge--Jay Turser "JT-RES" and biscuit--1133 National both seem to have no difference when playing an open chord or a 6 string slide chord.
point being, why not start with a brass nut that is too tall and reduce height to taste?
$0.02, mitchfit
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Post by mrstrellisofnwales on Apr 1, 2023 12:29:26 GMT
Progress so far: After the initial bits I did (see above) I replaced the nut with one I had already in my box of bits. It was just the right cut for heavier strings and needed a smidge of sanding but went down to fret height easily. Fitted the Newtone MM 15s at the same time. Made a massive difference to the tone- much better, I attribute that to the strings rather than the nut. As Michael more or less predicted, it pulled the neck forward eventually so as soon as I can find an appropriate truss rod tool that will get a tweak. But I’m also not in a hurry as it may move more yet. Until then I’m on a capo. Haven’t yet sourced any boxwood for the saddle. So having taken a cheapo copy in pretty poor shape-but structurally ok which is going in my camper van as soon as I get something better, I’m quite pleased. The tweaks which have had most effect have been, clean out and adjust the cone seating, strings and letting it settle for a while. Oh and for playing, a Diamond Bottleneck and Fred Kelly finger picks make a huge difference. What I didn’t expect which is a big plus is that I can get a sweet tone from the very lightest of touches so after 50 years I’m losing the Vulcan Death grip and the bear claw picking at the same time. Mrs T.
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Post by mrstrellisofnwales on Apr 26, 2023 8:02:31 GMT
A good few weeks on now and one thing I’ve noticed is a bit of buzz from the cone has returned. It’s fixable with a twiddle on the saddle screw but is it a usual thing to expect the screw to need a regular tweak? I can imagine that with vibration it might loosen a smidge- remembering that this guitar is a cheapo copy which gets played everywhere, inside, outdoors and travels with me in a Campervan, albeit in a good case. Mrs T
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Post by Pickers Ditch on Apr 26, 2023 8:44:39 GMT
Good morning Mrs T. With my very limited experience of Dobro type guitars it does not surprise me that the occassional tweak is required especially if the guitar is, as you say, exposed to variation in environment, temperature and humidity. The screw threads - male and female - could have slack between them too. Perhaps a touch of Loctite may help? Remember that adjustment is akin to tuning strings - and they need adjusting occassionaly. MM will be along in a minute and if I've typed tosh he will let us both know. Best, PD
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Post by pete1951 on Apr 26, 2023 10:20:56 GMT
I have seen a cone badly damaged by someone who kept tightening the screw until there was no more thread! Be gentle and you should be ok.
It’s a bit late now, but one thing that it’s good to do when taking resos apart is marking the cone.
I usually put a felt tip dot on the cone and body ( plus the biscuit or spider if they are being moved) so the cone can go back in exactly the place it has been in for ( in the case of vintage Nationals) over 90 years.
Most guitars aren’t perfect and the cone can ‘bed in’ and take up any small imperfections putting it back where it has lived for some time makes sense to me. Pete
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Post by mrstrellisofnwales on Apr 26, 2023 11:05:47 GMT
Thank you again guys. I marked the cone and spider positions first time I took it out, but since it wasn’t perfect then I can’t guarantee that it’s actually in its best alignment and has probably been out many times before I got it. I do tend to use the guitar for various tunings and think this might be part of it. Slacker tunings give more buzz. CGCGCE is a favourite of mine- but the 15s unwound can’t hack it so I go for a 16 and 12 pair of unwound. It has taken 3/4 of a turn to get rid of the bass string buzz when I put the 15s back on for open D on so I’m guessing there’s a string tension thing going on as well with there being more on the trebles and less on the bass- maybe it unbalances things. There’s plenty of thread on the screw. But it’s nice to know that a tweak on the screw is to be expected occasionally. Gently does it eh. Mrs T
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