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Post by linkous on Sept 25, 2021 10:55:24 GMT
You consider Gibson a luthier, lexluthier?
We can ask the question from point 3 to a few forum members, don't you think?
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Post by Pickers Ditch on Sept 25, 2021 11:27:00 GMT
This time I really am doing what Geronimo did in the film, Broken Arrow...."I walk away" Shine On Michael Me too, and my 'Little Big Man' clip referred to the inferred question "Why reinvent the wheel?" Best, PD.
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Post by lexluthier on Sept 25, 2021 14:10:39 GMT
You consider Gibson a luthier, lexluthier? We can ask the question from point 3 to a few forum members, don't you think? Semantics Ask away, we’ll see if anyone can be bothered to reply Out
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Post by linkous on Sept 26, 2021 10:22:11 GMT
A small illustration from the book 'The History & Artistry of National Resonator Instruments' by Bob Brozman, to show why I suspect that the sound of certain instruments is sometimes more by chance (forced for economic reasons) than by choice. And an additional question (not intended ironically, in all honesty and out of pure interest): where does the idea or statement that a cabinet speaker should not be made of solid wood come from?
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Post by Michael Messer on Sept 26, 2021 10:51:09 GMT
And an additional question (not intended ironically, in all honesty and out of pure interest): where does the idea or statement that a cabinet speaker should not be made of solid wood come from? Well, that information first came into my life in the late 1980s via my good friend at the time, Bob Brozman. The only wood bodied National guitars that interested Bob were 1928 and '29 Triolians and late 1930s National Aragons. The rest of them were of no interest whatsoever. If you look at that book as I do with knowledge of the man that wrote it, you would see that while it was the first of its kind and it does contain some very interesting material, it is actually a narrow view on the subject and is very biased. Bob did not like Duolians, he did not believe that people should play slide on single cone Nationals and if you really look at it you can see it is mostly a place for him to exhibit his collection and to preach the gospel of Bob. Linkous, no matter how hard you try and how many cuttings from books (most of which were written by my friends) you post on here, you are not going to change the minds of the people that do know about this subject. No I am not the reso police and no I am not blinkered. I just happen to know my subject and that comes from more than 40 years of research and conversations with other so called experts that have gone into the depths of National and Dobro guitars way beyond what most people would consider healthy. Don't forget that the first wood bodied guitars National produced in 1928 were PLYWOOD TRIOLIANS Next. I really am done with all this now. Shine On Michael
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Post by Pickers Ditch on Sept 26, 2021 12:54:13 GMT
Linkous, please tell us who you are exactly and where you get your knowledge from as you seem to have some pretty strong views on the subject of resonator design and construction.
Maybe you could help us plebians to understand a bit more, remembering that we too have read the books, talked with the current and past manufacturers and historians in detail about these wonderful machines.
Thanks in anticipation, PD (the other Malcolm)
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Post by linkous on Sept 28, 2021 7:40:40 GMT
As soon as you deviate from the original invention to try and improve it, you ruin it (IMHO). That tends to be the rule of thumb for many things. Shine On Michael The prehistoric bow and African banjo (essentially a resonator pioneer) are genius concepts indeed, Mr. Messer, but if I understand correctly you don't see the resophonic guitar as a small link within the evolutionary process of stringed instruments but as an invention that came out of nowhere? Are you therefore inclined to claim that the first printing press could not be improved? The first telephone, the first stove, vacuum cleaner or… cabinet speaker? In this context: Fender cabinet speakers were made from solid pine for a long time. They are still considered the best by many guitarists today. But not by you? So are there any or many exceptions to your above statement? And finally: when the loudspeaker concept within a resonator guitar is so celebrated because of its robust properties, why did anyone ever decide to build that 'cabinet' from flexible steel plate of 0.8 mm thick? I'm not asking this to undermine your expertise, I'm asking because I want to understand all those contradictions. Thanks!
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Post by Stevie on Sept 28, 2021 8:23:28 GMT
0.8 mm thick is between 22 and 20 SWG. Do you really think that once fabricated into a guitar body shaped thing that is in any tangible sense flexible? I don't, and I worked with sheet metal for so long that I learned the trick (now lost!) of "flexing" such sheet between the thumb and index finger to distinguish between gauges when pulling a bit from the scrap offcuts behind the guillotine.
e&oe ...
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Post by pete1951 on Sept 28, 2021 8:44:36 GMT
As soon as you deviate from the original invention to try and improve it, you ruin it (IMHO). That tends to be the rule of thumb for many things. Shine On Michael In this context: Fender cabinet speakers were made from solid pine for a long time. They are still considered the best by many guitarists today. But not by you? So are there any or many exceptions to your above statement? It is usually excepted that the above statement is correct, and solid pine sounds ‘better ‘ . Marshall used ply on their early cabs ( they may still do ) and the tone is said to be more ‘focused ‘ (and possibly louder?) . Of coarse most early Fender amps were open backed so it it often hard know what people are comparing. There is no doubt that body material has an effect on tone, wood ( ply or solid) will absorb and reflect different frequencies than metal. Ply ( in the short term) will be more stable, but well seasoned solid timber may well last longer . After a lifetime mending guitars I have rarely ( never ? can’t remember) had any Gibson ply topped guitars delaminate , perhaps it’s too early to tell ? ( I hope my 345 stays glued together for a few more years!) Splits on solid timber parts and distortion due to shrinking are very common. The older the guitar the more likely bad storage or extreme weather will take its toll. That said solid wood problems are often easier to fix than distortion or delaminating ply. I am stuck for a definitive answer,( this was about sound wells ) but would probably use ply. Pete Ok, next topic......
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Post by linkous on Sept 28, 2021 9:45:01 GMT
I don't know about your guitars, Stevie, but when I push on the backs of the steel guitars I have here at home, I do feel more flexibility than the wooden ones..
Thanks for your enlightening answer, Pete!
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Post by Stevie on Sept 28, 2021 10:00:18 GMT
The back of my only (MM) steel guitar has a pressed dome shape, and it does not give at all if I push against it Linkous. It is however a singular example and thus hardly representative. The only flexure I can feel is along the edges of the flat cut "F" holes, but I feel it is so insignificant as to be irrelevant. Perhaps all your guitars just have flat backs?
e&oe ...
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Post by linkous on Sept 28, 2021 11:09:54 GMT
I do not get much movement on the dome itself, Stevie, but that is in my case (and probably also in yours) because it is also well tensioned by wedges between neck stick and back. However, when I hold the guitars flat, in a way light can fall over it, at the back I notice a marked flexibility along the edges of the back. A flexibility that in my opinion is more difficult to achieve with wooden guitars, and especially with the solid wooden ones.
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Post by snakehips on Sept 28, 2021 13:21:22 GMT
Hi there !
It's whether they sounds good or not, AND whether they look cool or not, is all that matters to me !
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Post by Pickers Ditch on Sept 28, 2021 14:09:26 GMT
I said goodbye once BUT...
Linkous, do you actually own or have you actually played an all solid wood made resonator guitar?
If you have one and/or have played a gig with one in a theatre or packed club could you tell any difference in sound/tone?
More importantly, could the audience tell the difference in sound/tone?
The bottom line from me is you are over analysing and arguing everything which has no bearing whatsoever on what any individual wants out of his or her guitar. (apart from pi$$ing me off as well).
As Snakehips says, just choose a guitar for yourself based on playability, the sound YOU want, the looks and colour you like and comfort.
Then practise, practise and practise some more and stop coming on here and winding me up by arguing for the sake of arguing.
If you want to overanalyse and argue, then piddle off over to that facebook thingy and do it there, y'hear?
Now I'm gone. PD.
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Post by bonzo on Sept 28, 2021 14:34:46 GMT
T'was going on a bit wasn't it PD! As Snakey says if it sounds good,looks good and feels good it is good! While the discussion held some interest to some, guys on the forum that we know they know what they're talking about,hopefully it's been sucked dry now.
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