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Post by pete1951 on Sept 23, 2021 8:03:23 GMT
There seem to be 3 types of cone , the (expensive but very good NRP) the good Continental and Korean (?) made late 30s National copy that look great but sound dull. Pete
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Post by Michael Messer on Sept 23, 2021 8:09:05 GMT
Good advice all round, thanks! I've not been able to find a supplier for the Continental cones online. There's a UK supply called DC Cones that claims to produce unique-sounding hand-spun cones. I might give them a go. DC cones no longer exist and sadly their cones were never up to scratch. Continental or National. There is nothing else. Shine On Michael
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Post by Michael Messer on Sept 23, 2021 8:42:10 GMT
Daryll, I don't usually do this, but if you can't find one anywhere else I can help you with a Continental. PM me.
Shine On Michael
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Post by pete1951 on Sept 23, 2021 10:03:46 GMT
Good advice all round, thanks! I've not been able to find a supplier for the Continental cones online. There's a UK supply called DC Cones that claims to produce unique-sounding hand-spun cones. I might give them a go. DC cones no longer exist and sadly their cones were never up to scratch. Continental or National. There is nothing else. Shine On Michael Just checked the Hobgoblin site, looks like the ‘Korean ‘ cones are no longer available, they sell Viking brand which look very like Continental ones. Pete
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Post by linkous on Sept 23, 2021 13:20:40 GMT
The choice to use plywood or solid wood when building a guitar is on the one hand economical, on the other a value determiner. Wooden reso guitars were (and are) often cheap mass products. That this generates a certain sound is a consequence rather than a goal.
Many people confuse facts and conditioning.
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Post by Michael Messer on Sept 23, 2021 14:41:23 GMT
Linkous, I am sorry, but you are wrong about that. The best National and Dobro guitars ever built were made of laminates. It would be ridiculous to call a handbuilt Fine Resophonic guitar a budget instrument, or would you? The use of laminates is because solid woods do not do the same job, it has nothing to do with costs. John Dopyera built wood bodied Triolians with laminates because it was better than using solid wood. The construction of such instruments is akin to a speaker cabinet, not an acoustic stringed instrument. A solid wood soundwell would really not be a good idea. Even the earliest square neck Tricones with wood sound wells used plywood, some were 10mm thick.
Shine On Michael
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Darryl
Serious MM Forum Member
Posts: 28
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Post by Darryl on Sept 23, 2021 20:05:21 GMT
Some pics of the National cone, now that I've pushed out the dent. Worth the risk?
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Post by pete1951 on Sept 23, 2021 21:05:18 GMT
Hard to say. If you do use it , it might be best to have the dented area pointing to the tailpiece. The angle on the bridge means the biscuit is being tipped towards the neck. I would guess there is more pressure on the ‘front’ of the cone? Pete
This seems to make sense to me, what do others think? Is the front of the cone under more pressure? Is there more often damage to the front of the cone than the back? Feedback from those who have had more damaged cones than I have deal with would be good.
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Post by vastopol on Sept 24, 2021 8:30:14 GMT
On another hand it could be usefull to know if the "Viking" cones are good enough (as they seems to be the only biscuit option online these days); by looking at the pictures I see something very similar to what I've found in a "Johnson" guitar made in Shangaï by AXL...but I cannot be sure if it's a true "Continental", as this brand seems to had made some changes over time. The main visual difference seems to be in the way the spirals are stamped, if I try to compare with a Korean made cone, from a "Regal" guitar. The Korean cone show longer and thinner spirals more deeper punched on the surface (this deep embossing may drive them more rigid). What may looks like a Continental shows shorter and larger spiral embossing, but less deeply punched, and stops less close to the center than the other one, it was lighter too (same weight as NRP's "hot-rod"), and seems to give a more interesting sound. Perhaps Michael will help us to be able to choose a decent cone just by looking ?
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Post by Michael Messer on Sept 24, 2021 8:48:21 GMT
First of all, Regal resonator guitars are an AXL product, made in Shanghai. Looking at the photos of Viking resonator cones, they are Continental cones. Viking is a brand name invented by Hobgoblin. I am surprised at their pricing because it's hardly worth doing.
Shine On Michael.
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Post by vastopol on Sept 24, 2021 9:55:59 GMT
Great enlightening Michael, thank you !
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Post by linkous on Sept 24, 2021 13:04:10 GMT
Linkous, I am sorry, but you are wrong about that. The best National and Dobro guitars ever built were made of laminates. It would be ridiculous to call a handbuilt Fine Resophonic guitar a budget instrument, or would you? The use of laminates is because solid woods do not do the same job, it has nothing to do with costs. John Dopyera built wood bodied Triolians with laminates because it was better than using solid wood. The construction of such instruments is akin to a speaker cabinet, not an acoustic stringed instrument. A solid wood soundwell would really not be a good idea. Even the earliest square neck Tricones with wood sound wells used plywood, some were 10mm thick. Shine On Michael Of course plywood is the best material to build a guitar with, I don't argue with that either. It is easy and quick to process, with the result that it is also a much cheaper alternative to solid wood, which is welcome in mass production. So why would you work with solid wood on a guitar? In the case of a reso guitar, this is mainly a value determiner. A plank of mahogany is much more expensive, risky and also requires a lot more work. I hope I don't have to explain to you why a guitar from Fine Resophonic is more expensive than a Chinese copy? Moreover Fine Resophonic's guitars would be a lot more expensive if they were built from solid maple. I have a few solid wooden reso guitars at home, of which even the soundwell is solid. Do these instruments crack or fall apart? No. Do they sound bad? No. But maybe they don't sound 'correct' to the reso police?
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Post by bluesdude on Sept 24, 2021 14:26:33 GMT
Linkous, I am sorry, but you are wrong about that. The best National and Dobro guitars ever built were made of laminates. It would be ridiculous to call a handbuilt Fine Resophonic guitar a budget instrument, or would you? The use of laminates is because solid woods do not do the same job, it has nothing to do with costs. John Dopyera built wood bodied Triolians with laminates because it was better than using solid wood. The construction of such instruments is akin to a speaker cabinet, not an acoustic stringed instrument. A solid wood soundwell would really not be a good idea. Even the earliest square neck Tricones with wood sound wells used plywood, some were 10mm thick. Shine On Michael Of course plywood is the best material to build a guitar with, I don't argue with that either. It is easy and quick to process, with the result that it is also a much cheaper alternative to solid wood, which is welcome in mass production. So why would you work with solid wood on a guitar? In the case of a reso guitar, this is mainly a value determiner. A plank of mahogany is much more expensive, risky and also requires a lot more work. I hope I don't have to explain to you why a guitar from Fine Resophonic is more expensive than a Chinese copy? Moreover Fine Resophonic's guitars would be a lot more expensive if they were built from solid maple. I have a few solid wooden reso guitars at home, of which even the soundwell is solid. Do these instruments crack or fall apart? No. Do they sound bad? No. But maybe they don't sound 'correct' to the reso police? This has already been answered for you! plywood is sonically better sounding in a resonator guitar than solid wood, in the thirties plywood was harder to come by and probably more expensive!
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Post by linkous on Sept 24, 2021 14:57:53 GMT
The most important word in your comment is 'probably', Bluesdude.
Furniture history was also covered during my training as a furniture maker. Strips of veneer glued to plywood were already used by the Egyptians, centuries before Christ. Veneer was sawn for a long time, but at the beginning of the 19th century the first veneer cutting machine came on the market. One hundred years later, plywood was already being used as packaging material in the USA..
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Post by pete1951 on Sept 24, 2021 16:17:17 GMT
This has already been answered for you! plywood is sonically better sounding in a resonator guitar than solid wood, in the thirties plywood was harder to come by and probably more expensive! [/quote] I have worked on loads of guitars over the years and most pre1945 guitars I have worked on have been solid wood. Cheap Spanish guitars were solid wood into the 60s. Today solid wood is a rarity. Do plywood Resos guitars sound better than solid? Very hard to say. You would need a respectable maker to produce 2 identical guitars, one ply, one solid and do a sound comparison. Personally I think it is about stiffness, as the cone needs a good solid( or ply) platform to drive the sound, so a good solid wood will sound ‘better ‘ than a cheap thin ply Fender. I did once make 2 identical ( dimensions) lap steels, 1 ply , 1 mdf . The mdf one sounded better, I guess I should have made a 3rd from solid wood and I could have settled any argument! Pete
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