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Post by alexandre on Jul 13, 2021 10:28:02 GMT
Hello, It's been a long time without connection to the forum for me, and I have a question to the members... Have you experienced a satisfying repair of a vintage (stud) tailpiece ? I've found my vintage 12 string guitar with the broken tailpiece when I opened the case last time...  If it's possible, I'd like to keep the original tailpiece, but I don't know if it's possible. I haven't contacted anyone yet (I thought about Mike Lewis or Pierre Avocat), so if you got any experience about that, thank you to share about it !! Thank you and take care ! |
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Post by slide496 on Jul 13, 2021 13:08:15 GMT
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Post by alexandre on Jul 13, 2021 13:59:31 GMT
Thank you very much Harriet,
this post will help a lot, for sure !
I'll post a picture of the damage as soon as possible, by the way...
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Post by Michael Messer on Jul 13, 2021 14:03:53 GMT
Hi Alexandre,
Welcome back!
As well as looking at laser welding, I would talk to Mike or Pierre, they will know the best way to repair it.
Shine On
Michael
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Post by alexandre on Jul 13, 2021 15:03:41 GMT
Here are some photos...
The bridge has been taken off in this accident...  ... the good point is to discover the original colors of the bindings ! 
Take care, it's not for the ones to be easily upset !!     |
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Post by alexandre on Jul 13, 2021 15:14:56 GMT
... and I have to say that I've always put some light gauge strings and playing it mostly down to C...
After one century of service, I guess it's not absolutely abnormal...
Maybe the angle between the tailpiece and the bridge was too important (causing a important traction force upside -considering the angle of the tailpiece-) ??
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Post by snakehips on Jul 13, 2021 19:43:33 GMT
Hi there, As per my reply in that previous thread, I strongly suggest you take your broken tailpiece to someone with a laser welder. I had a vintage National brass (nickel-plated) and a NRP modern brass (nickel-plated) tailpiece both repaired by a laser-welder, in a dental lab. For the minimum damage to the nickel-plating adjacent to the fracture line, a laser welder causes the least cosmetic damage AND the strongest join. Both halves of the tailpiece will join to form one continuous piece of metal again, rather than 2 pieces with a different material in between (eg. Solder). I just took new pictures of the tailpiece on my 1930 National Style O. It was repaired just over 5yrs ago, and has been permanently strung up to full pitch regular E tuning, and swapped back between Open D, Open G, Dropped D, Open D Minor, and back to regular E tuning, multiple times over the 5 years, ALWAYS with 13-56 strings on the guitar. The tailpiece is as strong as when it was repaired over 5yrs ago. In close-up pictures, yes, you can see the join BUT any other method causes worse cosmetic damage. See my pics taken today : NB. This is how it looked immediately after the laser welding. No attempt was made to grind, smooth or polish the repaired join, for fear of removing nickel plating. It’s pretty neat, I think, compared to brazing and welding examples I have seen in the past. |
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Post by alexandre on Jul 14, 2021 9:18:16 GMT
Hello Richard and thank you for your experience and photos.
This 12 string stud tailpiece appears thinner than the 6 string resonator ones, it will be another point to deal with...
I will search for a laser welder, and as I'm in a rural area of France, it could take a little bit of time.
I'll actualize this post withe the leads I can find.
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Post by snakehips on Jul 17, 2021 11:07:39 GMT
Hi again ! Lovely Stella there. I do think the tailpiece will be just as strong as before, if repaired by a laser welder. At the thickness (thin) it is, it has certainly lasted a long time so far, so I think it would last well again repaired this way. Anywhere a workshop/lab might be that processes metal, makes metal thing, repairs metal things, MIGHT have a laser welder. They are expensive so not all places will have one BUT a jeweller, for example, might use services of someone with a laser-welder, so you could ask around. When I got my dental lab to repair my two tailpieces (I’m a Dentist, and use this lab often), I was buying a 3D scanner from them (for 3D scanning patient’s teeth, to make 3D printed models of their mouth, and design & make crowns&dentures) - for £27k !!!! So, I thought THEN was a good rime to ask them a favour and repair my tailpieces !!!!! I brought my 1930 Style O with me, to show them - and they were so fascinated with the guitar, they all stopped what they were doing to have a look. I’d imagine someone will be equally fascinated with your 12-string guitar. The lab technician who operates the laser welder was concerned that it won’t be possible polish the repair after welding, for fear of removing more nickel-plating BUT he was confident there would be little loss of any plating close to the repaired edge. I brought a National tailpiece from another National to show what it should look like, angle wise, once repaired. The lab mixed a large amount of silicone “lab putty”, and pressed the spare, unbroken tailpiece onto the putty before it set. Once set, the tailpiece was removed, creating a jig/ mould for the two halves of the broken tailpiece to be accurately aligned. You can see in the pictures the small and only mild burn marks to the silicone putty, caused by heat from laser welding. The heat produced (enough to melt the metal, and allow it to fuse to the other broken half) occurs in such a small area, for such a short split of a second, that there is little transfer of heat beyond. It takes lots of individual spots of laser welding to repair along the length of repair line. If there any gaps between the two parts to be joined, a thin bit of brass can be inserted into the gap - and laser-welded on each side - and it will all fuse together as one piece of metal. All the best - and do let us know if & when you get your tailpiece repaired. I could always ask my lab to repair it for you ? I’m in Scotland. |
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Post by snakehips on Jul 17, 2021 11:12:28 GMT
NB. The last photo shows my repaired NRP tailpiece.
I got them to try repairing that one first - to let them “practice” on that one, before having a go on my vintage National tailpiece.
They made a better job on the vintage tailpiece, cosmetically.
I have seen repaired tailpieces done by National Resophonic. One I saw was laser welded, polished, then nickel plated again.
An outstanding result. Perhaps contact National Resophonic. The cost, including shipping both ways, might be high though.
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Post by bonzo on Jul 17, 2021 14:26:03 GMT
Snakey, when you go to work on Monday there will be a queue of forum members with broken tailpieces waiting to book an appointment! Lol! 😎😊👍🎸🎸🎸🎸
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Post by alexandre on Jul 18, 2021 16:42:50 GMT
Hello, Thank you again Richard for the details about your experience, it's much appreciated. Will check around my place and will let you know... By the way, my 12 string is labelled Rex inside the body. I've asked about it to Neil Harpe, he told me that information is extremely rare about Rex guitars, and that he believed it could have been made by Lyon & Healy around 1915. It's not a long scale as Oscar Schmidt models, and it's sounding really sweet (and loud if needed) ! Here's another shot :  |
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