Neck movement

[kripke]

I have a 1932 Duolian. If I grip the neck and twist it slightly (i.e. kind of like twisting the throttle on a motorbike), I can feel a small but noticeable bit of movement between the neck and the body. This can happen when playing too, just with the physical pressures of fretting sometimes.
A while ago I took it to a tech/luthier who gave it a good look over and said everything was basically sound with no major problems. Sorry, I don't know the technical terms, but I believe they said the issue is the central wood strut running through the body, which I think the neck attaches (bolts?) to wasn't fully a tight fit into the metal body between the heel and strap pin. They managed to improve the issue initially but after having it back for 3 months or so, the movement seems to be creeping back again.
I guess I should say it doesn't really effect the way the guitar plays. It's just a bit disconcerting when you feel it happen.

I guess my question is, is this type of small neck movement, if not exactly "normal", a part and parcel of some Nationals given their age and untypical construction? 

[Michael Messer]

Hi Tim

This has nothing to do with what your guitar tech told you about the missing folding wedge inside your guitar. Originally your guitar would have had hide glue on the neck to body joint. This was put in from the inside when the guitar was assembled. The hide glue disintegrates over time and the neck becomes loose. The only way to correct this problem is to remove the neck and put some glue into that joint. It sounds to me that at some point in its life, your Duolian might have been taken apart and not reassembled correctly.

I hope that is helpful.

Shine On
Michael

[kripke]

Hi Michael,

Sorry, probably me being dense but I didn't quite understand the comment about the "missing folding wedge".

Just so I make sure I know exactly where you mean by "...glue on the neck to body joint" - do you mean the glue would've been where the heel of the neck meets the outer side of the body - as per the image -



Cheers
Tim

[Michael Messer]

Tim,

My apologies, re-reading your post the tail-block was away from the body.

Regarding the glue. I am going to check something before I answer your question.

Shine On
Michael

[Michael Messer]

Hi Tim,

That's exactly where the put the hide glue. According to the luthier I discussed this with, Dave King, they used too much glue which over time broke up and probably fell away. There are mixed opinions on this, and I have a feeling it might start a discussion.

Shine On
Michael

[leeophonic]

The wedges (folding) are akin to two triangular wedges which when working together close the gap, as Michael said get it to someone to reassemble correctly and with a good setup there is the next 90 years of fun.

Dave King, Mike Lewis or Steve Evans are all held in high regard and know there onions

Lee

[kripke]

Thanks Michael,
I'm a little unclear on whether the missing glue is the cause of the problem or these mysterious missing "wedges" ...or is it both? Also where the wedges should be located.

I did try and contact Dave King a while ago but didn't get a response. His website has some conflicting comments on repairs. The main page says "I am not currently taking any more repair work for the foreseeable future", but then the Repairs page suggests he may be doing some repairs (limited to Martin, Santa Cruz and NRP) though he also recommends Celine Camerlynck for other work.

leeophonic - thanks, isn't Mike Lewis based in Paris? Can't find any details on Steve Evans.

I'm in West Kent so ideally I'd want to look for someone in the SE area to see if I can remedy this issue.

[Michael Messer]

Hi Tim

Steve is in Leeds and Dave is near Newbury. Dave takes on occasional one-off customers. I will speak to him for you.

One thing for certain - no matter what everyone says, only take it to one of the three names mentioned in this thread so far.

Celine is great, but for the job you are asking about, she just doesn't have the experience with Nationals that the other three names have got. Dave, Mike and Steve have each handled many hundreds of vintage Nationals, not just a few or even a few dozen.

Shine On
Michael.

[kripke]

Thanks Michael, much appreciated.
Tim

[Michael Messer]

Hi Tim,

I have spoken with Dave and he would be happy to do your guitar for you. PM me about it.

Shine On
Michael

[kripke]

Hi Michael,
PM sent
Tim

[bluesdude]

Jul 17, 2021 9:38:42 GMT kripke said:

Hi Michael,
PM sent
Tim[/quote

You did the right thing!,let us know the result. The last time I've seen a creaky/moving neck the neck stick had slipped in the neck joint! not something an ordinary repair person has any experience with,,,,,,,,,,,



Kenny,

[maui_chimes]

I would be worried that the joint between the neck stick and the neck heel was loose. It probably just needs to be taken apart and inspected by a qualified repair guy. The neck shouldn't move

[kripke]

FYI - Neck is all sorted and now feeling nice and solid following a trip to Dave King's workshop in lovely Berkshire

[snakehips]

Hi there !

I took a 12-fret, rolled F-Hole Duolian into Luthier’s Corner, Denmark Street, years ago, when it was Dave King’s workshop, When Celine Camerlynk worked there too. Not sure if he owned it or if they co-owned it.
When I got there, Dave had nipped out, and so Celine had a good look at my guitar. She told me what the issues were with the guitar (which were later verified by Dave when he re-appeared a little later).
Celine knows here stuff and her work is amazing.
However, she said Dave was the best to work on my guitar - either she genuinely felt she can do it but prefers to work on other type of guitars, didn’t want to steal of job from him, or genuinely feels he is the best. I feel the 1st & 3rd option is most likely.

I have two non-reso guitars that have been transformed into wonderful guitars, after Celine worked on them. She was actually more expensive than Dave - but worth every penny !!!
(I’m not suggesting MM was suggesting anything other than that, by the way !!)