Tricone Replacement?

[63vibroverb]

I own a Regal RC56 Tricone resonator that I've been slowly upgrading bit-by-bit. It plays and sounds wonderful. I upgraded the tuners to Grovers and also changed out the T-bar bridge to a National unpainted bridge with scalloped legs. The volume and bass increased tremendously. The thick maple saddle also makes a big difference I'm sure. 

I'm running into an issue with the cones rattling/buzzing when the strings get worn in and stretched out. Whenever I put a new set of strings on, it sings and screams perfectly with no hint of any buzzing. After about a month, the cones start to rattle and it goes away when I put on a fresh set of strings. This happens regardless of the brand of strings. I've used John Pearse pure nickel 16-59, Mapes nickel plated 16-56, and D'addario nickel bronze 16-56 so far. 

My suspicion is that the cones have gotten compressed from age/use. When the strings stretch out over time, there is less downward pressure from the strings coming down on the cones, causing them to buzz. I could be wrong. 

In your opinion, would a new set of National tricones remedy this? I get that changing strings regularly is necessary, but a month is way too fast for acoustics for me. 

[Michael Messer]

Hi 63vibroverb,

There are a few issues here...

Firstly that any brand of strings that are gauged 16/56 are designed for Dobro-style high bass G tuning - GBDGBD, and anyone that tells you otherwise, is wrong.

16/59s work well on Tricones in low bass tunings - DGDGBD and DADF#AD - but to do so the Tricone must be stable and have a properly constructed soundwell, which I have never seen in any Far Eastern-built Tricones. This is the reason there is not a Tricone in the MM range.

The NRP T bridge will help massively and so would a nice soft box or maple bridge saddle, but a set of NRP cones "might" exaggerate the problem because they are made from thinner gauge aluminium than Regal would have used in your guitar.

Cone buzz on a Tricone can only come from two places, where the T bridge attaches to the cone and where the cone touches the soundwell. But if the soundwell is not stable it will cause buzzes and rattles.

I do not believe it is your strings as they age. I believe that your unbalanced set of strings is not helping, but I also think it might be your playing technique. Tricones are not like single cone guitars and they cannot be played in the same way. They take a lot of controlling and care to play them and not get problems.

I would try one of three things, and maybe all three....
1 - Use a set of 15 17 26 36 46 56.
2 - Fit gaskets under each cone. Magazine paper is good cut in a perfect ring to fit under the cone. Stick it down with paper glue that is easy to remove.
3 - Make sure the top of the cones and the T bridge fit snugly together. Maybe use a paper gasket on those too, or a touch of paper glue, only a thin wipe of glue, just enough to take out buzzes.

Start with the strings and the under-cone gaskets and see how that goes.

When you read about how to maintain and setup Tricones, people are mostly talking about NRP and 1930s instruments, which are not the same as yours.

I hope that is helpful.

Shine On
Michael.

[63vibroverb]

Thanks for the reply Michael. I play open D tuning and have used 16-56 and 16-59 on other resonators without a problem. I’m not a beginner, by the way. If the problem was not related to the strings, dont you think the buzzing would be present right away instead of after 4 weeks?

So it seems that the problem is either my rip-off fake tricone and/or my bad technique/playing. Maybe it’s just me, but this isn’t the first time you rubbed me the wrong way, Michael. Thought I’d give this forum another chance but I’m kinda regretting it.

I’ll go ahead and see if the replacement cones fix the problem. Will report back to benefit others.

[Michael Messer]

63vibroverb, The reason your other resonator guitars are not affected is possibly because they are not Tricones. I have not tried to offend you or rub you up the wrong way, I am actually trying to be helpful and have given as detailed reply as I can. I do not think your guitar is a rip-off fake, but I do know that there are inherent problems with Tricones that are not built to the same specifications as NRP and National Tricones. Tricones are a lot more complicated to build than single cone instruments.

Regarding my comments about 16/56 strings; they are designed for high bass GBDGBD tuning, that is not my opinion, it is a fact. 16/59s are excellent for the tuning you use. For many years I used 16/59s on my Tricones and still do occasionally. Playing techniques can cause problems on Tricones of any type. Some people claim that Tricones should never be played without picks or a plectrum. I am not one of those people, but I do understand why they say that.

I wish you well and that you sort out the problem with your guitar.

Shine On
Michael

[hawgwash]

I dunno but i thought that was a heckuva great reply M- slam dunk .

[groff]

I'd be interested to hear more about what constructional details in the soundwell of Far Eastern tricones lead to problems with stability.

I'm interested in tricones, and I've read and appreciate the reasons over the years why there is not a MM branded tricone.

But no chance that I'll be buying a National.

[bonzo]

Hi 63vibro. I don't want to get caught in the crossfiire here. I will just say before I put in my three pennyworth that MM is known for giving good advice and also for taking on board others opinions.
That said, your string problem. Unless I'm missing the point (wouldn't be the first time) you say your strings 'slacken ' off. Surely this would put the guitar out of tune. When you retune the guitar (tightening the strings) wouldn't this put the same pressure on the cones as a new set would? I have and have had several tricones including a 12 string and once they were set up have had no problem with rattling as I recall.
My understanding of modern tricones is that they are not the same as an original National but have become instruments to be played and enjoyed in their own right.
As with any guitar, care is always taken in the choosing and setup and problems will occasionally arise. You will I'm sure get your guitar sorted and if it means you change the strings once a month it could be worse. Try MM Newtone strings if you haven't already, the strings of choice for many of us on the forum.
Good luck, let us know how you get on.

Best wishes to you all, John

[Michael Messer]

Hi Groff,

It is a big subject and it is unavoidable that my comments will be criticised and that I might be digging a hole that should not be digging! I am not trying to offend anyone, but I am trying to explain what I feel about Tricones.

There are differences and different opinions about Tricones. These are the first instruments designed by the inventor of the resonator guitar, John Dopyera. They were designed to play sweet Hawaiian steel guitar music on, but with enough volume to lift them above the backing instruments. John said that the sound of a great Tricone "flows like a river" and he was right. When I play a Tricone I am looking for an instrument that is sweet, warm, silky to play, is abundant with overtones and natural harmonics and has loads of sustain. The smoothest and sweetest thing you ever played! These are qualities that I have only ever seen in many original square-neck and a few round-neck 1920s and '30s Nationals, some modern NRPs (National Reso-Phonic), and all Fine Resophonic Tricones.

When I say "some" modern NRPs; NRP make steel bodied Tricones which are very popular, but they do not sound anything like the Tricones I am talking about. They do sound good, but to me they just sound like good resonator guitars with none of the qualities I have mentioned. This is also how I see Far-Eastern built Tricones. They're fine, they play well and sound good, but they don't sound like what I call real Tricones. There are a few reasons for this; The soundwell is just not constructed as it should be and therefore is not as stable as it could be, the 6 inch cones are not made of the correct gauge aluminium, and the assembly is just too quick for such an intricate and sensitive instrument. So what they end up with are very nice sounding resonator guitars that for my money do not perform as well as single cone instruments, which are just easier to assemble and get right.

A new set of NRP cones might help and I hope they do, but they could also exaggerate the problem because they are lighter and finer.

I have nothing against the Tricones we are talking about, they are nice and sound fine, but they do not sound like the instrument John Dopyera invented and built.

This is like comparing a Ford family saloon to a Mercedes family saloon. Everything is there and the Ford works fine, but there are enormous differences that just cannot be built for the price of a Ford.

As for the correct way to build a Tricone, I am not going to explain it on here.

I hope that explains my thoughts on the subject and does not offend anyone.

Shine On
Michael

[groff]

Thanks Michael. I'd have been very interested in more detail of soundwell construction, good design and build and not so good, but OK.

[twang1]

I can't get enough of tricone discussions! We need more!
A tricone is my favourite resophonic instrument. I've been playin' almost daily the same NRP tricone style 1 I bought in 2003.
In all these years I had a few buzzes in the first months. What I did was to slacken a bit the strings and push a bit on the bridge: problem solved.
I might have been wrong in doing that, and at the time I didn't know a lot about it, but it worked. Since then I never had an issue. I also took it on quite a few flights, and in a normal hard case.
I can play very softly or very strongly, but with a different technique than my single cone. It's difficult to explain: I listen closely to the type of desired sound and adapt my right hand to it in order to get it (for lack of a better explanation).
I use JP strings, 16-59 in open D and open G. For the first few years I played with thumbpick and fingernails but then I switched to Thumbpick and Alaska picks.
I hope mr Vibroverb will solve the problem and let us know how it goes.
And thanks to Michael for his opening out his knowledge to us...
Frank

[leeophonic]

Tricones can be very tricky to trace buzz and rattles, I have my old 30's square neck and a Beltona round neck just starting to wear in at 27 years old and tight as a drum, My Dobro tricone however that went last year because of it,s unconventional construction even with a quality going over by Steve Evans was temperamental but fun due to the shorter scale.
Lee

[hokumjim]

Was not going to, but can't resist a two penneth! I agree with all that MM has said about tricones, and I have had a few. If you get a good old National tricone, can't be beaten. I have a style 3 squareneck that sounds superb, I have had round necks and they sounded great. I have yet to play an NRP that sounds anywhere near as good as my tricone of choice for round neck slide playing, A Beltona! Strings are Daddario Heavy PB with the top two beefed up to .015 and .018

[bonzo]

Hi hokumjim, maybe in 70 or 80 years the NRPs will have bedded in! Lol! 😎👍🎸

[hokumjim]

Don't get me wrong, they sound good, new out of the box. My Beltona is 27 years old and well played in, but it sounds so much more full than NRP's I've played (a lot) The soundwell is made of thicker gauge brass than the body and the scale length is a bit longer, hence the increase in bass and more rounded tone. That is the reason you seldom see them for sale and when you do the prices are high.

[vastopol]

Beltona's soundwell are made of brass?
Are you sure?