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Post by bonzo on Jan 8, 2021 12:24:55 GMT
Right! I'm going to get my 180grm copy out and play it on my big system! Blueshome. Muddy didn't 'jump on' any folk revival. When he first toured here he had his electric band with him that he would have played with in Chicago. The audience in England were expecting him to be a share cropper singing rural blues! They were horrified at the sight of a hip Chicago guy playing electric blues. (Ala Bob Dylan a few years later). It gets better! A chastened Muddy returns to America, digs up the old 'folk' material, makes some appropriate recordings and returns to England. Walks on stage to be greeted by a hip Stones inspired audience waiting for some electric blues! He just couldn't win! I was lucky enough to meet and see Muddy perform several times in the late 60's and through the 70's by which time he was doing what HE wanted to do. Which brings us back to the original thread. Yes listen to as much of the music you like that inspires you, don't close your ears to music you may not know and don't be afraid of developing your own style! The blues police won't cumma 'nockin!
Best wishes to you all, John
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Post by snakehips on Jan 8, 2021 12:28:44 GMT
Yes, MM, the recording is beautiful, on a technical front. Maybe a bit too much reverb for me but OK. Muddy Waters' solo piece (I mentioned in my first post) is awesome.
The quality of the recording, and the quality of the music played, are two different entities.
I can't listen to the rest of the album because Wilie Dixon's duff bass playing spoils it.
Do you not hear the duff bass playing ?
Not just poor pitch intonation on individual notes, but obviously Dixon did not know/feel when the chord changes should come in - which leaves horrible spaces of clashing notes. I can sense the tumbleweeds bouncing across the studio, as Muddy Waters likely glares at an indifferent Willie Dixon (tone-deaf, or not caring, OR worst, on purpose).
You don't hear that at all ?
Big Crawford would be RIGHT on the money, if HE was playing the bass, instead. (think he might have been dead by then).
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Post by Pickers Ditch on Jan 8, 2021 13:51:33 GMT
It ain't a competition on whose the best player or whose the best producer.
It's a great album as far as I'm concerned and always has been since I first heard it in the 1960s, but then again I'm only a bass blayer who enjoys the overall feel and the music on this album - NOT technical perfection.
Either my ears are completely bunckered but I can't hear what the big deal is about - yes, there are clashes - including the bass drum (foot stomp? guitar bash?) clashing coz, whatever it is, it's out of tune and time, too.
This is LIVE music, straight in the can - has anyone on here never cocked up playing live ever?
...if you want to blame anyone, you blame the guys who actually pressed, packed, distributed, released it and sold the record. They were the people who did all that stuff to make the money.
I'm happy to have spent my hard earned pocket money on it, so no complaints from me.
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Post by bonzo on Jan 8, 2021 14:18:48 GMT
WOW Snakey. Playing it and loving it!
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Post by bonzo on Jan 8, 2021 14:50:57 GMT
Completely off thread now but couldn't let the negative remarks about the folk singer album go unchallenged. I'm lucky enough to have a system that puts you 'in the studio' , you can hear them licking their lips! Dixon puts in a fine performance, lots of little fills and Buddy Guy is spot on as is Clifton James on drums. What are you listening on Snakey. I'm listening as I'm typing and getting chills down my spine! I've posted part of the liner notes which I think if read in relation to my earlier post sheds some light on the folk/blues bollox that was going on at the time. It's music! Sorry for going off piste, but needs must. Are we listening to the same album!!!!! Best wishes to you all, John
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Post by Michael Messer on Jan 8, 2021 14:53:41 GMT
You know, I have been making records both as a producer and as the artist for what now is a very long time, and in that time I have been in studios alongside some of the greats of both music and recording. I consider myself to have a pretty good ear for tuning and timing and so do others. Sometimes my ear can be too fussy about tuning and never be satisfied (hmmm...there's a song in there somewhere!). Almost every artist and producer that I respect always put "feel, vibe and timing" before accuracy of tuning, especially when recording a live band which will have bleed on all the mics from other instruments. If anyone thinks that a team like Muddy Waters, Buddy Guy and Willie Dixon recording at Tel Mar Studio with Willie Dixon as producer, didn't know what they were doing, they are not understanding what they are hearing. This is a masterful piece of work by all three musicians. I absolutely love Buddy Guy and Willie Dixon's contribution to the session.
When listening back to the tapes deciding which takes would make up the album, they knew exactly what they were doing and chose the takes we hear for very good reasons. Please do not take this with any disrespect or malice, but who do we believe about the choices of which takes make up the album, Willie, Muddy, Buddy and the Chess executives, or two guys talking on a forum in England?
Pitch and tuning is an interesting subject and it is a fact that the Western understanding of these elements and the African understanding of them are different. Some folks talk about Blind Willie Johnson's voice as being gruff, tuneless and almost ugly, but to me it is a truly beautiful sound with no flaws whatsoever.
Having said all that, music is a personal thing and what one person likes, another person will dislike. We as artist are unable to please everyone and therefore we do not try, we just have to please the people in the room when we make the recording.
Oh...and by the way, when I said it is a masterful recording, I was NOT talking about anything to do with the technical stuff, I was talking about THE MUSIC.
Shine On Michael
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Post by bonzo on Jan 8, 2021 15:01:49 GMT
Oi Michael, four of us! Lol! Wish were all doing it over a pint and a wee dram!
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Post by blueshome on Jan 8, 2021 17:03:49 GMT
Bonzo. You must have missed my comments about Muddy’s playing with Spann when promoted by Chris Barber in the 50’s. Wonderful playing, dodgy recording. You hear Muddy tuning to Spanish on stage and the performances are great. We know what the critics responses were but that’s irrelevant to the current post. The Folk Singer album I’ve always never really got attached to, it just doesn’t feel right to me.
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Post by bonzo on Jan 8, 2021 17:49:05 GMT
Hi Phil, I think I know exactly what you mean about the album because there was I time when I felt the same! It wasn't the plantation recordings and it wasn't got my mojo working either. It also felt to me a little bit contrived perhaps like the London sessions and similar that so many of our heroes were subjected to. But over time the album or should I say the music became more appealing to me and I'm now at the point where I wouldn't want to be without that album. Hope you don't think I was teaching a chicken how to suck eggs, my remarks were meant in a more general way. Perhaps we should end our discussion here having gone completely off thread, unless Michael thinks it worthwhile transferring us somewhere?!
Best wishes to you all, John
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Post by lonelyjelly on Jan 8, 2021 17:53:51 GMT
🤣🤣
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Post by coach on Jan 10, 2021 11:05:41 GMT
Folk Singer is perfect for a Sunday morning when you're self isolating for 10 days - thanks for the heads up! I absolutely love imperfections in music (as long as it's not everyone the whole time!) when the artists are good. It makes it sound like humans made it and not machines. As for the OP, I agree with Michael. When I started out playing"slide" it was the learning to pick that improved my slide playing more than anything else. Someone at a gig some 20 years ago asked me if i'd "got a Stefan Grossman book or something?" "Who's he?". I have never used anything but this book and my ears. Recently it has been very useful to see via youtube how other people play the same songs - there's a wealth of instructional material out there to enhance or build your own style.
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