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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2020 18:00:09 GMT
This is a debate that could go on forever.Once you've changed the strings on a guitar,or the tyres on a classic car,then technically it's not original any more. A replacement decal is not irreversible. It's these people that get a drill out to fit a pickup to a vintage reso that already has it's own unique amplification system that I'd want sent to the tower. Read the description of this: LINK I rest my case.
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Decals
Jun 21, 2020 1:01:10 GMT
Post by snakehips on Jun 21, 2020 1:01:10 GMT
Hi again !
Nobody gonna be saying bad words to nobody. We're bigger than that !
Bakelite necked Triolians were sent back to National in the early 30's for new, wooden necks. Resonator cones collapse and need replaced Headstocks got bejeweled with Rhinestones, digging holes into the wood to inlay them. Holes were cut through the metal to install pickups Some Nationals were sent back to have factory-fitted pickups, even on replacement coverplates Tuners buttons break off and get replaced Whole tuner plates get replaced because the tuner posts get badly bent or the gears seize up Wooden square necks get shaved down into round necks Wooden squarenecks get replaced with new roundnecks The VERY first Tricone had it's metal square neck cut off, and a wooden neck installed into it. Worn paint finishes on Duolians & Triolians got various new paint jobs, many looking nothing like a National would ever have looked Some worn Duolian & Triolian bodies got plated (eg. Bukka White's Duolian) Some worn Duolians & Triolians get authentic reproductions of Duco paint finishes Rare Nationals, with the whole finish gone, are sympathetically refinished in as close an assumed appearance, to how the guitar MIGHT have looked. Very early Polchrome Triolians, with paint flaked off the early coverplates, get "touched up" where worn, to match up to the remaining original paint Some Nationals get new decals - some NOTHING like the originals, some very close to the originals Some replacement decals are purely to try and bring back the look of the guitar, in the same way guitars are touched up or fully repainted.
THIS is all shades of grey.
Different levels of modification / repair / necessity / reproduction / homage / respect / different look / authentic / subtle / provocative / "just want to make it look nice again" etc etc etc.
Shades of grey.
This is MY beef though :
WHO gets to draw a line in the sand, and where that line in the sand is ? Who get's to say what is acceptable, and what is not ?
It used to be someone else's guitar, maybe it had lots of owners, now it's mine, someone will own it after me ....... it continues to have a life.
Who gets to say WHAT is allowed to happen to these guitars, during their "life".
What sort of person thinks THEY have the right to impose their stamp on this, and everyone must conform to this ? Is this arrogance ?
I respect MM's views, because I think he wants to protect vintage Nationals - there is not an indefinite supply of them. Nothing wrong with that. But I don't have to conform and agree with everything he says, do I ?
We can do the "It's my forum, if you don't like MY world, go away and don't come back". Is it gonna be a "If you don't think I'm right, then YOU are wrong" situation ?
Or, we can celebrate our differences, and respect everyone's views ?
There is more room out there, and there could be more room HERE, in this forum, for other views...... without the "I'm gonna say something and will probably be told to "F**K OFF" charade.
We are all better than that ?
It is what it is. A replacement decal. I'm not trying to cheat anybody. It looks nice. The headstock didn't look so nice without the decal, and worn lacquer, exposing bare wood. (or the rubbish sticker that was on it before). The new decal could be easily removed, IF I wanted to remove it. It's staying.
In a world that has resulted in the BLM movement, let's abolish the "National Guitar Police", and replace with mutual respect of our differences and similarities.
That needed to be said.
Now, let's all chill !
We got bigger things in our lives than this, surely ?
Let's continue enjoying Nationals. Thank you.
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Post by snakehips on Jun 21, 2020 1:10:05 GMT
PS.
I’ve been a member on the MM forum for many years and enjoyed it immensely, learned a lot, made a lot of nice friends from near and afar, and may have even contributed a few things myself.
When I get pushed, I push back, that’s all - but I explain myself.
I’m all for staying, if that’s OK people ? Thanks in advance.
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Decals
Jun 21, 2020 9:16:00 GMT
Post by Michael Messer on Jun 21, 2020 9:16:00 GMT
It is all an interesting point of view and each owner (keeper) is entitled to do whatever they want with their own possessions.
My comment about it not being my business, was because it is not my business, just my personal viewpoint based on a 45 year history of looking at old National guitars.
Because they are musical instruments, working tools, I have seen them deteriorate piece by piece, because generation by generation of "keepers" remove and destroy parts of their originality. What happened to them when they were five and ten years old is a whole different thing to what happens when they are 70, 80 and 90 years old.
I am not going to write an essay on this, but am still making the point that beautiful rare vintage items should not have things like fake decals stuck on them.
Age and wisdom are strange phenomenas because they cannot be taught or explained and they are not necessarily connected, but as time goes by I feel differently about the preservation of things from their time. Maybe that is because I can see how time passes by and that events that feel like they happened last week were actually 40 and 50 years ago. In my own work I now appreciate and value recordings I made 30 years ago, way more than I did 20 and 25 years ago. Even my own guitars, suddenly I have been playing them for decades and they matter so much more than they did in my past. Musical instruments should definitely be played and enjoyed, but I am still not sure about putting a decal on where the original fell off. It has a whole different look and unless it is a completely perfect aged replica, to my eyes it looks terrible. I don't really see the point.
The Japanese have words for the things I am talking about - gentle decay being a beautiful and treasured thing, empathy towards things, the transience and pathos of things.... etc. It is a whole philosophy that we don't take as seriously as Japanese culture does.
Ask any of the world's high end vintage guitar collectors and dealers about the value (not in monetry terms) of originality and condition. Those two words will always rise to the top, and as our beloved 1920s and 30s National and Dobro guitars drift along through time, those two things become more and more precious, because they are becoming more and more difficult to find.
That is what this forum is about and it is important that such discussions exist for others to read and consider.
That's all. Now I'm going to have breakfast :-)
Shine On Michael
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Post by davey on Jun 21, 2020 10:10:44 GMT
I'm still trying to decide whether or not to put the Rhinestones back.......... Peace and love
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Decals
Jun 21, 2020 10:30:26 GMT
Post by snakehips on Jun 21, 2020 10:30:26 GMT
Hi again !
Ah, so a perfectly aged looking reproduction Decal would be OK, then ? What if the guitar is mint ? Does the decals still have to look aged - ie. more than the guitar ?
“.....should not have fake things stuck on them” ?
That brings me back to my earlier point - shades of grey and where the line is in the sand and WHO thinks they should be the one to say where the line in the sand should be put.
Putting a rare 12-string wooden National back into playing condition is one thing, but putting a whole new paint finish on a guitar is something completely in a different league, to replacing a decal. Is it a one rule for you, different rule for everyone else ?
Mike Lewis did a lovely job on that guitar but if someone was to say it “looks terrible to their eyes”, would you not think that sounds terribly insulting to the person (Mile Lewis, in this case), who worked hard perfecting a craft, and did their absolute best to reproduce something, in the vein of the intended purpose ?
One last question :
If a batch of unused, NOS stock of 1930 National decals were found, perfectly intact and usable, slightly aged looking, would you still have the same feeling that sticking the decal on a vintage, age-appropriate, National guitar would STILL be wrong, as the original was lost ?
I never said this reproduction decal was perfect. I think it’s the best reproduction decals I’ve ever seen yet though.
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Post by snakehips on Jun 21, 2020 10:37:19 GMT
Ha ha, Davey !
It’s like when I was an Altar-boy at church as a youngster. The nails in the hands & the feet of the heavy brass, crucified Jesus, on a brass cross, on a tall pole had come out, and Jesus fell off the cross.
I quickly suggested to the Priest, I get a hammer - and nail Jesus back on the cross. Then, it suddenly felt a bit weird, and a bit wrong !!!!!!!!
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Decals
Jun 21, 2020 11:17:54 GMT
Post by Michael Messer on Jun 21, 2020 11:17:54 GMT
I think you are completely missing my point. Just to pick up on one thing you have said; The 12 string Havana is a whole different thing. That guitar was rescued from being in a very bad condition, having been virtually destroyed by various situations and people along the way. It is widely known and revered among collectors as one of the finest restorations of a vintage National ever done. So not a great comparison. It went from this.... To this.... There is nothing wrong with the decal that you have fitted. It is very well done. However, to me a large part of the beauty of a vintage guitar is in the way it has aged and decayed. The decals on either side of it in your photo are so much more beautiful. It is a wonderful thing that only time can achieve. It is your guitar and you can do whatever you want with it. I'm going to leave it there because we have to agree to disagree. Enjoy your day. Shine On Michael
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Decals
Jun 21, 2020 11:53:31 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2020 11:53:31 GMT
When an item, such as a guitar, is no longer in mint condition, it is acquiring “provenance” which is a subjective attribute. One way to look at restoration is basically it is the removal of provenance and an attempt to return the item to mint condition, which of course cannot be fully achieved. So like the provenance, the restoration is subjective. I think that is what has been said...
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Post by davey on Jun 21, 2020 13:08:54 GMT
Ha ha, Davey ! It’s like when I was an Altar-boy at church as a youngster. The nails in the hands & the feet of the heavy brass, crucified Jesus, on a brass cross, on a tall pole had come out, and Jesus fell off the cross. I quickly suggested to the Priest, I get a hammer - and nail Jesus back on the cross. Then, it suddenly felt a bit weird, and a bit wrong !!!!!!!! It's okay as long as you don't dress as a Roman soldier to do it. Great story though !
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Jun 21, 2020 14:15:34 GMT
Post by snakehips on Jun 21, 2020 14:15:34 GMT
I’m not missing the point. But MY point is where you draw the line in the sand for yourself, in the shades of grey of modifications to guitars, is clearly not where you put the line for the rest of us to adhere to. Double standards.
I’m going to leave that there too.
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Jun 21, 2020 14:20:04 GMT
via mobile
Post by bonzo on Jun 21, 2020 14:20:04 GMT
In the late 50's as a London school kid we often went on trips to the Tower of London. The suits of armour that are now in hermetically sealed cabinets were just standing around propped up on plinths. It was considered good luck to rub Henry V111's codpiece (I think a Yeoman told me that)! Much more fun, but 50 thousand people a day doing it, well I can see why they put it in the cabinet! All around London are still traces of war damage if you know where to look. When they repaired the church tower near St Paul's so as not to upset the tourists (we're all friends now) more than a few of us were upset. I think what I'm trying to say is that sometimes it's the damage that tells the story and is best left and sometimes things need to be repaired and protected (Henry's armour was covered in rust except for the codpiece) so future generations can appreciate the history. This applies in both cases I've mentioned. There will always be disputes where the two philosophys/attitudes rub up against each other, it's just good IMHO that enough of us care in the first place!
Best wishes to you all, John
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Decals
Jun 21, 2020 14:38:34 GMT
via mobile
Post by bonzo on Jun 21, 2020 14:38:34 GMT
Ha ha Davey excellent! Penny has just dropped. Lol!
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Post by davey on Jun 21, 2020 14:59:56 GMT
These same arguments apply to many things, Buildings, VIntage Cars, Fine Art, Antiques. I've restored several Listed Buildings and carried out works that make them look "right".
My last old house had a weaving loft with lots of small windows, all bricked up to save either window tax or possibly just the cost of replacement frames.
The purist argument says that the bricked up windows are part of it's history. The sensible view is to replace the windows in the correct style and make the house look as it's supposed to.
This is kind of how I feel about Snakehips's Decal. However, I'd tone it down a bit and leave a note saying when it was done. Still can't decide about the rhinestones though.
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Post by Pickers Ditch on Jun 21, 2020 15:20:24 GMT
Davey you MUST do the rhinestones, IMHO.
Being the owner of fake P bass which has fooled (even to the point of it being dismantled and all the bits "checked") by more than one respected expert, I'm staying out of the discussion.
Only to say that the bass has a full documented history including D.O.B. but not the name of the person who built it.
...and if I were ever to sell it, the potential purchaser would be told the truth.
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