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Post by richclough on Apr 18, 2020 20:58:36 GMT
Okay, so that's an odd subject title.
What I'm asking the forum is this...there are some blues artists, and some performances that break the rules. Break the groove. Add an extra bar, or half bar. Change the mode, the rhythm, the key, the melody. Basically, take it somewhere else...possibly somewhere more fundamental, possibly back across the Atlantic.
This can be shocking, sound disjointed. It's probably more jarring in a recording than it would be at a gig where you are part of the audience, sharing the performer's energy and sensing where they are going.
What prompted this question is a separate thread containing a documentary on Louisiana Red where he was playing solo vocal and electric guitar and just stepped out of the groove with some riffs that expressed the emotion, but completely broke the pulse of the music. There are other artists I've heard who do a similar thing, just throw it in there...
I know that the blues music that fascinates me most is the - for huge want of a better expression - more primitive, cruder, more open, simplistic expression. More fundamental. Can't play it, want to.
There are a million people who play 'blues', and most of them bore me senseless. 12 bars, formulaic turnarounds, over-cooked guitars, too loud, too predictable. Quite frankly, a lot of the time, I bore myself senseless.
So, what I am asking is two things:
1) Please can you share any examples that occur to you of what I'm trying to describe? Assuming what I am saying makes any kind of sense. 2) Can this be learned? Can it be taught? 3) Which current players are breaking the rules....share the music please.
Cheers,
Rich
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Post by bonzo on Apr 18, 2020 21:13:17 GMT
Bukka White, John Lee Hooker, Houndog Taylor, Son House. You may already be aware, but it's where I often look for 'crash and burn' stuff with a lot more going on than first meets the eye. Many more of course!
Best wishes and good health to you all, John
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Post by tallsailor on Apr 19, 2020 0:13:23 GMT
'Lightnin' change when Lightnin' wanna change.'
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Post by Pickers Ditch on Apr 19, 2020 6:46:42 GMT
Rich, what you are asking makes complete sense but in my very humble opinion it is not something that can be taught.
It's all about that famous 'feel' thing - you just do what YOU want to do when YOU want to do it.
Don't rely on formal musical training, rely on anarchy, your heart, forget your head and brain.
All of the above are great examples plus the Mississippi Hill Country guys, R.L. Burnside, Junior Kimbrough etc.
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Post by snakehips on Apr 19, 2020 7:00:42 GMT
Hi there !
Two years ago, I had two gigs at the Edinburgh Jazz & Blues Festival, playing piano, to back Chicago blues guitarist John Primer (ex Muddy Waters band 1979-83), with a drummer and bass player of my choosing, and we were joined with US harmonica player Brandon Santini.
Apart from the fact we had a 2hr rehearsal with John Primer and worked out 20 songs, that night only 7 of them got played. On the 2nd gig, the day after, things got more on the edge ! Seat of the pants stuff. He only played 3 of the tunes we had rehearsed. I was half expecting something like that would happen, I suppose.
However, half way though the Little Walter / Junior Wells tune “Everything is gonna be alright”, which has quite a distinctive bass line, John Primer starts kind of talking to the audience within the song, getting the audience going, introducing the band, telling them that I was HIS Dentist and telling the audience they should go see me if they need a good Dentist (that’s my day job, thanks for the plug, JP !!) ..... he then proceeds to get the audience clapping in time, signals for the band to play real quiet, ..... and he starts singing acapella “Papa Was A Rolling Stone” ! We, the band are not sure whether to keep playing the Gonna Be Alright tune, start playing the one chord vamp tune, or just keep “low” ! I was cringing in my piano stool !
I wasn’t happy with the departure from playing blues and felt this was gonna train crash in front of a large audience !!!!!!! Somehow we just managed to hold it together. If you are doing a blues gig, keep it blues !!!!!!!!
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Post by Pickers Ditch on Apr 19, 2020 7:35:19 GMT
Sorry Richard, but that IS the blues - JP was having fun, entertaining the audience and trusting the band to go with him (I would take that fact as a compliment ) . I've played in a very tight rehearsed blues band but the best nights we played were when the crowd was buzzing and we mentally said 'f88k it' and went off on a tangent, a bit like what you've just described. Oliver's Bar at a Burnley Blues Fest was one of them nights - incredible buzz for us too.
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Post by pete1951 on Apr 19, 2020 7:50:20 GMT
The Blues had no rules when it slowly evolved. The ‘rules’ were put there to make it easier to understand and make it more user friendly. If you want to make up a song in the Blues style most modern musicians use the ‘Rules’ this is very convenient as you just need to say “ 12bar in C, slow change, medium shuffle “ and most players will join in straight away. If you are not brought up with the Rules you don’t use them . Pete More later, I’m sure
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Post by blueshome on Apr 19, 2020 7:59:35 GMT
What rules? Examples, Charley Patton, Willie McTell, Fred McDowell, Big Joe Williams etc, etc. Outside a band situation, blues was rarely 12 bars, go over to weeniecampbell and check out the the thread “the long and the short of it”. Anything can be learnt, a teacher could only illustrate as in this music the arrangements are flexible so it’s the style not the song that needs to be learned. The only way to do this is to immerse yourself in listening to as much of the music as you can.
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Post by leeophonic on Apr 19, 2020 8:05:14 GMT
The Blues is alive, at times a little like Frankenstein's monster and sometimes in strict composition with 12 bars.
As they say in comedy timing is everything well that's for comedy.... The beat is one thing, like a good pub crawl how many bars is another.
Hanging on one chord is more in keeping than fingerboard pyrotechnics, that's the way I feel it.
Lee
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Post by profscratchy on Apr 19, 2020 8:23:20 GMT
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Post by pete1951 on Apr 19, 2020 10:10:58 GMT
The farther back you go the more relaxed the structures get, I can’t think of many modern players who do non-formal blues structures unless they are coping some existing formats (This is a chance for those with a deeper knowledge than me of 21st century recordings to post a list) Pete
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2020 10:18:06 GMT
My view is that the old blues players were innovators. If it's not innovative (or not trying to be), its a pastiche of blues music. I too am bored senseless by a lot of what's out there now (especially the strat shredders). Our own MM is very innovative! TT
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Post by davey on Apr 19, 2020 11:40:52 GMT
Have a listen to Lightnin' Hopkins.
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Post by twang1 on Apr 19, 2020 14:06:39 GMT
Can this be learned? Yes, I think. Regarding the change of rhythm, listen closely and then try yourself. T-Bone Walker, for example, was a master, going from straight to syncopated to New Orleans beat in the same solo.
Regarding the occasional different structure: I tend to listen to the melody, and often it's the melody (or the singing) telling me when to change. Divide your typical 12 bar structure into 3 (phrase, rephrase, answer). Very often the extra bit is added at the end of those sections. I had the pleasure of playing with R.L Burnside and J.Kimbrough in different occasions and they were never playing it the same way. In the beginning I was worried about it but then I learned that the only way to follow them was: follow the flow, follow the melody, follow the drummer fills. In that kind of music I also found easier not to think in 4/4, but if you really want to think...do it in 2/4. Frank
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2020 15:53:05 GMT
Most of the early bluesmen couldn't count,or at least only on their fingers. Not easy to do if you're playing a guitar. I used to think the 12 bar format was established by early blues players in an ensemble situation in order to have a common reference for tempo but it in fact goes back much further to the days of the 'field holler' where one worker sang a four bar phrase which was repeated back by the other workers then a final and contrasting phrase by the first worker so you have A,A and B each of which is four bars which makes 12 bars.Add some rhythm to help coordinate the manual labour and you've got the basics. Just listen to a 12 bar blues from any era--it's all there. Of course anyone can,by accident or design, step outside the box. (Sorry Frank--I realise I've just repeated much of what you've just said)!
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