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Post by Andymccann on Feb 29, 2020 19:39:57 GMT
You mean the sides are 2 different materials? Surely not
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Post by coach on Feb 29, 2020 20:32:56 GMT
Having seen what's inside some of these resonator guitars at a certain price point, I am not in the least surprised!
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Post by tigercubt20 on Mar 1, 2020 15:15:06 GMT
i can assure all you experts, my gretsch honeydipper, is all brass, and where the paint rubs off, as its quite thin, the plating is visible. its a well constructed and excellent sounding guitar.
building the body out of a combination of steel and brass sheet makes no economic sense,or engineering rational. joining a steel top to a brass body, or any other combination, would be a foolish whimsey. the use of german silver is a nice idea, as it saves on plating. but german silver is just brass, with a highe nickel content. its not a magic material. as long as the guitar is built according to the known original designs, then it will be equal. but like much of human endeaver the desire for some kind of secret magic is evident, in the case of guitars it manifests as brand snobbery.
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Post by Andymccann on Mar 1, 2020 15:31:41 GMT
I can’t quite gauge your mood from those very well written word. I’m not sure there are many or any guitar snobs on this forum. Obviously original National instruments are held in very high regard and rightly so. Otherwise there are fans of all types of guitar here and Michaels own creations can hardly be said to be in that category and we know that they punch pretty much alongside modern National guitars
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Post by tigercubt20 on Mar 2, 2020 0:46:17 GMT
I can’t quite gauge your mood from those very well written word. I’m not sure there are many or any guitar snobs on this forum. Obviously original National instruments are held in very high regard and rightly so. Otherwise there are fans of all types of guitar here and Michaels own creations can hardly be said to be in that category and we know that they punch pretty much alongside modern National guitars no snobs on this forum, too well educated, and knowledgable. i was a bit grumpy when i wrote that, i had been accosted by a youth, who enquired "whats in the case dude?" its a guitar, and i am not a dude i am a granddude." is it like a gibson man," yes i am a man, and its a resonater guitar, " what a dobro ?" . no its not. said youth then told me he was into thrash metal, and proceeded to list the best guitar players. i considered taking the guitar out and thrashing him with it, but of course that would be terribly wrong on so many levels.
oh the reason. the plated brass body of the honey dipper is painted, is for very sound and practical reasons, its not a good idea to paint directly onto brass, and leaving it shiny would limit its market.
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Post by Michael Messer on Mar 2, 2020 8:37:49 GMT
This is completely unbiased and not in any way a criticism of the Gretsch, but it is finished that way for cost reasons, not for marketing purposes.
Shine On
Michael
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Post by snakehips on Mar 2, 2020 13:16:12 GMT
Hi there !
I remember about 22 yrs back, or so, drilling a jack socket hole into the side of my 1996 NRP Delphi, to fit a pickup and was most surprised to find the guitar body side was brass, not steel. Maybe the sides are easier to bend and keep in shape, in brass, than in steel. Maybe the Delphi's sounded better with brass sides, or maybe the solder stuck to brass better than to steel ???
Either way around, the sides could be different metal to the front & back on any reso.
As MM said, best take a magnet with you, and test ALL sides !
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Post by Michael Messer on Mar 2, 2020 13:26:36 GMT
With the type of presses being used to produce Gretsch, MM and NRP guitars, it doesn't make it any easier to use a softer metal. There are pros and cons for both - brass is softer, but steel has a better memory for holding a shape.
I can only assume, based on my experience of dealing with manufacturers of metal-bodied guitars for the past twelve years, that the Delphi had brass sides because they needed to use up some brass sides that were already made. Factory bosses do not like wastage.
Shine On
Michael
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Post by snakehips on Mar 2, 2020 13:47:36 GMT
Hi again,
I did install an excellent pickup (won't say what brand, ha ha !) into a friend's Delphi (circa 1999-2002), making the hole for a stereo jack socket (!!!) and it too had brass sides.
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Post by Michael Messer on Mar 2, 2020 15:26:39 GMT
Sadly, we can't ask Don Young, so we have to guess at why that was.
Shine On
Michael
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Post by Kris on Mar 11, 2020 20:19:29 GMT
I have a Painted Gretsch G9202 honey dipper, brass body. I can confirm that the magnet doesn’t stick to the body, until it reaches the steel screws around the cover plate, onto which it grabs on like a limpet! I think with a decent set of strings on them, the Gretsch resonators are a fun guitar to play. My most played guitar is (ironically considering my National collection) a wood body Gretsch Alligator simply because it lives on my sofa and I really don’t stress if it gets a knock. It sounded tremendously better with a set of Michael’s Newtone Strings on it.
However, you get what you pay for and Gretsch guitars will never look or sound as good as a National! The finish and welding on my honey dipper is a bit ropey, very “production line” looking compared to the sublime finish on a National. The Alligator is like a comfy old pair of slippers for me and will always stick around but the Honeydipper will be for sale as soon as I get round to listing it!
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Post by vastopol on Mar 13, 2020 11:08:28 GMT
I'm wondering about the type of cones used by Gretsch? It could be very interesting if some of the Gretsch owners could peep an eye under their coverplate and tell us what kind of resonator they have, in wich model?
I've stumble across this attempt to make a comparision between two models...we can see a "Saga" type of resonator inside the "honey dipper", and a saddly crushed "Continental" type in the "Alligator".
Two types of cones under the same brand? Isn'it weird? So after reading some of the comments, someone mention a third type of cone, the slick one without spirals similar to the "Beard" or "OMI" used on the very first "Johnson" guitars and mandolins (because of the flat surface instead of a bowl, wich allows to put a smaller biscuit with the heigh of a guitar cone, that's why a NRP mandolin cone couldn't fit in a chinese mandolin, maybe a good idea to cut cost of making specific tools for mandolins?...).
Tree differents cones for a single cone guitar??? Sounds like a joke!
I did some research and it seems true:
Here's the the slick one:
Here's the "Continental" type, (I have a bunch of these cones and if they look similar, they vary in weight, stiffness and off course in sound too).
And here's the super rigid "Saga" Type with radial lines on perymeter, (mostly used in "Ozark" family of instruments, recognizeable by their awfull back pressing):
And you? Wich kind of cones you've got?
(For speaking about German silver, Steel or Brass, all are very good with their own qualities, but the way the instrument is build and set up have more impact on the sound, and must be keep in first sight....I've once met a chap very proud of a newly made NRP german silver tricone, with Xtra light strings burried on saddles shapped like hair combs and Shredder super low action....do you call that a snob?
On an other hand, I remember an clever interview with Mike Lewis from Fine Resophonics describing the differences between each alloy very clearly, no it's not a snob point of vue, but true facts, an other fact is there's not much peoples really abble to ear the difference ). (Sorry for my English...)
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Post by Kris on Mar 13, 2020 12:11:47 GMT
I'm wondering about the type of cones used by Gretsch? It could be very interesting if some of the Gretsch owners could peep an eye under their coverplate and tell us what kind of resonator they have, in wich model?
I've stumble across this attempt to make a comparision between two models...we can see a "Saga" type of resonator inside the "honey dipper", and a saddly crushed "Continental" type in the "Alligator".
Two types of cones under the same brand? Isn'it weird? So after reading some of the comments, someone mention a third type of cone, the slick one without spirals similar to the "Beard" or "OMI" used on the very first "Johnson" guitars and mandolins (because of the flat surface instead of a bowl, wich allows to put a smaller biscuit with the heigh of a guitar cone, that's why a NRP mandolin cone couldn't fit in a chinese mandolin, maybe a good idea to cut cost of making specific tools for mandolins?...).
Tree differents cones for a single cone guitar??? Sounds like a joke!
I did some research and it seems true:
Here's the the slick one:
Here's the "Continental" type, (I have a bunch of these cones and if they look similar, they vary in weight, stiffness and off course in sound too).
And here's the super rigid "Saga" Type with radial lines on perymeter, (mostly used in "Ozark" family of instruments, recognizeable by their awfull back pressing):
And you? Wich kind of cones you've got?
(For speaking about German silver, Steel or Brass, all are very good with their own qualities, but the way the instrument is build and set up have more impact on the sound, and must be keep in first sight....I've once met a chap very proud of a newly made NRP german silver tricone, with Xtra light strings burried on saddles shapped like hair combs and Shredder super low action....do you call that a snob?
On an other hand, I remember an clever interview with Mike Lewis from Fine Resophonics describing the differences between each alloy very clearly, no it's not a snob point of vue, but true facts, an other fact is there's not much peoples really abble to ear the difference ). (Sorry for my English...)
I’m not the best at ID’ing cones, shamefully. Any tips? |
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Post by Michael Messer on Mar 13, 2020 15:12:06 GMT
The cone on the right is an old design Continental that has not been made for a few years. The cone on the left looks like it came from Korea, not from China. Without having it in my hands I cannot be sure exactly what it is.
It is not strange that this company uses components from more than one supplier. From what I know and have experienced about the Gretsch manufacturing process, they use what they can get cheaply in bulk. They have the power of the brand name behind them that they bought, just like National and Supro do. They are nothing to do with the company that produced Chet Atkins' and Duane Eddy's 6120 guitars. Gretsch is owned and run by Fender, which is owned and run by business people, not guitar makers and not any connection with Leo and his amazing Fender instruments.
Not meaning to sound like a rant, just information :-)
Shine On
Michael
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Post by Michael Messer on Mar 13, 2020 18:51:06 GMT
Vastopol,
Your playing is sweet, you have a very nice tone and gentle touch.
I disagree with your comment that 80% of the sound is created by the resonator and only 20% by the body. There is much more to it than that. The sound of any musical instrument is the sum total of all the components working together as one. If it were not that way, then there would be little point in making guitars of different materials and different qualities and there would be no need for great luthiers. We would just need a good cone.
I am not sure about the holes in the soundwell of your wood bodied guitar. I believe it would sound better if that soundwell did not have holes in it and if it had a proper neck stick. It looks to me like the designers of this instrument have misunderstood the difference between a Dobro with parallelogram holes in the soundwell and a short Dobro-type neckstick, with a wood bodied National-style guitar fitted with a 9.5 inch resonator. It often happens that people confuse wood bodied Nationals with wood bodied Dobros. IMHO these guitars were not designed by knowledgeable people.
Shine On
Michael
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