Wood bodied resonator guitars

[richclough]

I read a post from MM a week or so ago, that contained this text re: 1920s wood bodied Triolians

"There was a time when nobody knew about these guitars and when they turned up they were hard to sell, but times have changed and it is now common knowledge that they are amazing instruments, so they get snapped up very quickly.

I got one in the early 1990s and it completely changed my opinion and understanding of what wood bodied National and National-style guitars could actually be."

This intrigued me. I'm currently plotting my next major guitar purchase - 2 year countdown. I'd like to understand which brand/model is closest to these guitars. Then I'm going to try one....

Cheers,
Rich

[Pickers Ditch]

I have a MM Blues'28 which is modelled on one of the originals.

See: www.michaelmesser.co.uk/michael-messer-blues-28

I have never played an original 1920s wood body but I would recommend one of these MMs with no hesitation whatsoever - it compares very well with my 1931 steel Triolian and 1936 steel M-32.
Much warmer sounding and great fun.

...oh, and it's a lot cheaper than an old'n, too.

[bonzo]

Wot PD sez! It would have to be a special guitar to beat one of Michaels' blues 28's. At the price they sell for you might not have to wait 2 years......

Best wishes to you all, John

[leeophonic]

Rich if you want to know what current brand is closest to the 1928 Wood Bodied Triolian then if is Fine Resophonic, pick you guitar and Mike can make it, there are a lot of other guitars that Doff their cap to the triolians but they are not close.

Hopefully over the next two years you will have the fine resophonic in your lap.....

Lee

[hawgwash]

I've noticed some of the NR triolian  models are wood bodied-i think in walnut -maybe some of the polychrome -not sure-.I was wondering how they'd sound but never played one and resisted buying for once. MM blues 28 12 fret i have is killer . luckily the cone on my older triolian anemone flower is really responsive-showing zero fatigue somehow.the NRG M-1 wood body tri cones are pretty damn good-from what i hear on this board you can't beat FINE RESOPHONIC.

[leeophonic]

NRP make nice guitars, but they are not hand made, Mike Lewis @ fine Resophonic creates much like the original Dopreya Brothers, the early Wood bodied triolians were hand made pre factory instruments before the mass stamping and assistance from other companies and more staff, so to recreate that you need the right materials, the correct approach and craftsmanship, simple if you think about it.

Lee

[Neal]

I may be out of line here...old Nationals weren’t made, from what I’ve seen, to the exacting standards of newer NRP. Great, yeah, but.. I’ve never held a FR guitar, and would expect angels trumpets, but an old Nat, no, just a good workhorse. Heck, that’s ALL they should be anyway.

[leeophonic]

Neal you are right in respect of the construction of National Guitars, but there are also pre factory hand assembled guitars into which the early wood bodied triolians fall into consideration, maybe a bandsaw to cut timber and a lathe to spin a cone but that is it. A year or so later when Beauchamp was on the scene they tool up, stamping machines (metal bodied Triolians etc) and more employees.
Mike Lewis at fine resophonic is one guy(person in modern pc speak), even making his own laminated ply to ensure the correct composition. They are probably more boutique than the early Triolians but that is not a bad thing

NRP who are not the old National company can CNC you a nice wood bodied triolian but there lies the missing element.But they do have big world wide numbers to meet so it is common sense to use the tools that are available today.

I have just thought as I write this another example loose (Gibson or Fender) have custom shop builds where certain builders hand build and assemble these are highly sought after because they have that extra something.

Regards Lee

[Neal]

I kinda like CNC.. not real fond of Taylor, but I think that MY main bias is strictly nameplate related. How many early pre factory Nationals were hand built? Were those built to the standards of a modern NRP or FR? My experience with old reso guitars pretty much pales to the collective here. Only played a few “vintage” models, couldn’t tell a duo from a trio, and it’s been years. But impressions of those few, while not bad, are kind of a no brainer if I were deciding between a modern and old. I do have 3 newer NRP, 2001 Estra 12 string, 2009 Estra 6 and 09 M1-12, but no old reso.

MM gets a lot of love, I’ve heard vids, sound like they should, what would one find upon opening a reissue MM and one of those old Nationals? From a absolute playability aspect, nameplate aside, which one would feel more effortless? That would be the one I’d prefer to play. Oh yes, I get that “extra something” statement, the knowledge that a person painstakingly went thru the process old-school, and you are the one using it IS a satisfying experience, even if it’s not yours. But if they have access to modern tools and machinery to make a line, level, measurement, near perfect is a real good thing.

With a lot of older instruments, from saxophone to guitar, I’ve heard things like “it’s a great piece, you have to work a little harder to get ‘that’ sound, but it’s worth it” or a paraphrase of that sentiment. Does a seasoned (fatigued) 85 year old cone still perform optimally?

[Andymccann]

Only you can answer the question of which sounds more effortless. MM guitars have a good reputation because they are a very good and affordable homage to the originals. Easily the best in their price range and some. Much cheaper with far less hassle to go along with

As all philosophy is a footnote to Plato, all resonators are a footnote to National. They got it very Very right and all these years later there’s still nothing quite like them

Poetry over

[leeophonic]

Neal as we approach the old triolians turning 100 (well 93) it is a bit like fine wine some will be exquisite some will have turned to vinegar, do not get ne wrong I too am an NRP fan, but it has taken a few twists and turns to get the right guitar. God bless Don out go the lights!!!

Initially they were over built, around 2006/7 they brought out the thinner metaled Triolian and the Don and they nailed it, Hot rod cones are superb, I do not personally like the environmentally friendly water based finishes, good for the planet but it ain't no Duco.

Back to the source of this thread, Mike Lewis will build the closest to an original 1928 Triolian, even a tricone one!!!

Lee

[gordon]

I don't have anything intelligent to add...
....except I really really like wooden bodied Nationals and the whole family tree, their descendents, MM's Blues 28, Fine Resophonics, NRP and Delta that John Alderson makes.
There's something about how warm their sound is, deep and rounded, how the slide notes can kind of bloom, count me in!

[Neal]

Jan 12, 2020 17:02:09 GMT Andymccann said:

Only you can answer the question of which sounds more effortless. MM guitars have a good reputation because they are a very good and affordable homage to the originals. Easily the best in their price range and some. Much cheaper with far less hassle to go along with

As all philosophy is a footnote to Plato, all resonators are a footnote to National. They got it very Very right and all these years later there’s still nothing quite like them

Poetry over

Sure, I get that, only I can decide etc., but sound isn’t really what I was referring to, it was playability. I understand Bill Monroe preferred the action at, what to most, would be extremely high, so yeah, playability is also subjective. Much can be tweaked, but original quality really is just there, no? Even sound is wildly subjective, I’ve never met a metal body reso I’d like to live with fr’instance, but many do, and I still like to listen to others playing one competently.

It was a real question though, not philosophizing, regarding the build difference of those two examples. I use MM as they seem quite popular, and have not read neg reviews, also because, well...we’re here!  What sort of quality differences would you find opening up a wood MM and old National? Pressboard vs solid vs veneer vs plywood? More plastic? Drastic shortcuts to balance cost and value? Or would they be generally similar? I suspect more similar than not.

I’m getting...older..,have been thru the years of vintage envy/desire, and have a few very nice examples at home that I’m pleased with, but aside from nameplate and good workmanship, as well as old school luthier artistry, am hard pressed to understand how good “old” instruments are better made than many modern examples. First to admit I know little about luthiery or even woodworking in general, but I do have all the 5 senses working pretty well (old cases often smell musty), and a healthy curiosity, adjustable mirror, and a pretty good sense of what sort of work and care goes into making good things. Maybe most of it IS just digging old good stuff, thinking about just whose hands it’s been in, what it’s ‘seen’, mojo if you will, though we’ve all played some pretty craptastic “vintage” instruments.

Also, the finish. Is THAT why 2 of my 3 have finish issues on the neck?! Just up near the body join like it flaked off. At least the flakes were edible.

..what were we talking about again?

[leeophonic]

Neal the finish issues on your NRP,s are known to be around a specific batch and product used which caused issues, not uncommon and have been discussed on the forum previously. Not sure if they still offer warranty on these.

In terms of fit finish and playability, I have had new & vintage Nationals and the various brands in between, what do I keep using as a yardstick, my early Beltonas, when Brozman/Voldermort was asked which was the best National in the shop (Slide & Picket) he said the Beltona!!!

Something we will not be able to tell is how the modern builds sound/fare in 80 years, aging playing mojo who knows, or is it just nostalgic to look at these old guitars with reverence because of who was associated with them or the recordings they have been part of.

One thing to consider in old Vs new Hide Glue...

Lee

[washboardchris]

If memory serves Don Young (very early on) made a few painted wood resos in his garage.these come close but i dont know how you would find one.sadly over here buying an old National is like a lucky dip(some are very good &some are awful and some are just ok).I have swapped cones between vintage guitars in the past and cones that sounded great in one guitar would not sound so good in another.