Similarities in open tunings (open G and D discussed)

[janatore]

Hello there,


since 12 years or so i am a silent reader of the Topics/issues discussed in this big resonator guitar world resource.


Instead of being present here i do a video from time to time; especially since i play Michael Messer guitars exclusively.


I once was asked to do some Videos about open D (i use open G most of the time or Standard Tuning). As a former music teacher (in my younger ages) and a social worker theese days i tried to do that.

I ended up doing 4 videos basically talking and playing to show the logical parallels between open G and D (and even open C CGcgce) and then their distinctive differences.
Basically it is where the 3rd note is set: in open G it is the b string (b as the major third of G) in open D the g string (f# as the Major third of D). Then the open G has the low fifth (D) in the bass that allows nice bass use and the open D has the high root D that allows cool root note melodie playing. And there is a lot more I know.

I started those Videos quite sponanious and improvised and as a Major basic thinking Suggestion. There is more to come if there is any interest.

If you like, feel invited to discuss, comment or even Show how you come up with your slide/open Tuning/Standard Tuning approaches so far.
Thanks for stoppin' by.
Kind regards

[Michael Messer]

Hi Jan,

I would like to write something in this thread, but will do so when I have some time to think about it

Shine On
Michael

[janatore]

I think both if my started posts belong more into the music area i guess...

[janatore]

I need to add that some of my later videos seem to show me playing left handed. That is not the case.
I guess the "selfie" function of my cell phone let me seem to do so.
I am right handed playing there.
Thanks for the advice.

[Michael Messer]

Jan, I tend to think of the various tunings as whole complete sound, rather than thinking about whether I have a 5th on the bottom or a major 3rd in a certain place. I think it is also important to think of them in groups, rather than keys. So G type tunings are "Spanish" and D type tunings are "Vestapol", this makes much more sense when discussing them.

The most obvious and oldest form of open tunings, certainly from my own research, are tunings that are variations of 1st and 5th notes of the scale, so....1 5 1. This is the basis of Indian open tunings which are as far as we know the oldest. Interestingly Indian classical violinists use open tunings, mostly 1 5 1 5 in the key of D or C. Most Indian classical stringed instruments sit around the keys of C and D, occasionally going to E flat and E. This translates across the globe to America in the early 20th century where we see open D tuning as a common way of playing guitars. I don't believe there is any connection between Indian D tuning and American D tuning, but that it proves open D using 1 5 1 variations is the natural "happy place" for guitars. There is also evidence of those 1 5 1 intervals appearing in west African stringed instruments, but not often in D. In African music, across much of the continent, F and F# are common pitches of stringed instruments, and with more intervals than just 1 5 1. This is because African music uses harmony, whereas Indian music does not. Indian music only has melody and rhythm, which is why it shares similarities with some forms of primitive blues, such as North Mississippi Hill Country music.

Open G "Spanish" is something else entirely and enters our world via Spanish and Mexican music being played in Hawaii by Mexican labourers that were shipped in by the thousand to work the land. This type of tuning is harder to trace its origins, but it is an adaptation of "standard" type of tuning.

My choice of tuning for a certain piece is determined by the style and total sound of what I am going to play. Both groups have their advantages and disadvantages, but I think the most natural and obvious tuning for a stringed instrument are Vestapol type tunings because of the root on the top for playing melody.

It is a myth and completely wrong to think of vestapol as a more bluesy tuning than Spanish. There is much evidence of both types of tunings being used in many styles of music. The idea of bringing in a major 3rd in both types of tunings is a natural progression from the basic 1 5 1 because in American folk music of almost all types there is harmony, melody and rhythm. Therefore it requires a more complex chord to be complete.

I have been babbling on, but not sure I have even begun to answer your actual question! Funnily enough, I have been working on a new piece of music this week and I have worked it up in both types of tuning to see which I prefer, and because of the root on the top and the 5th next to it, I have decided to continue playing it in Vestapol tuning.

As you know, you can playing anything in either tuning, but some things are more suited to a particular tuning.

As well as variations of D A D F# A D and D G D G B D, I also play most of my lap steel music on a Tricone in G B D G B D and a variation on that which is G B D F# B D. This gives me a massive range of sounds and allows me to play in what feels like more than one tuning in one tuning. It can be a major 7th, a 6th, Vestapol and Spanish, depending on which strings are played together.

Now I need to get on with my day! ....to be continued :-)

Shine On
Michael

[pete1951]

Dec 7, 2019 9:39:08 GMT Michael Messer said:

The most obvious and oldest form of open tunings, certainly from my own research, are tunings that are variations of 1st and 5th notes of the scale, so....1 5 1.

My choice of tuning for a certain piece is determined by the style and total sound of what I am going to play. Both groups have their advantages and disadvantages, but I think the most natural and obvious tuning for a stringed instrument are Vestapol type tunings because of the root on the top for playing melody.

It is a myth and completely wrong to think of vestapol as a more bluesy tuning than Spanish. There is much evidence of both types of tunings being used in many styles of music. The idea of bringing in a major 3rd in both types of tunings is a natural progression from the basic 1 5 1 because in American folk music of almost all types there is harmony, melody and rhythm. Therefore it requires a more complex chord to be complete.



As you know, you can playing anything in either tuning, but some things are more suited to a particular tuning.


Shine On
Michael

I feel rather inadequate posting here as both Michael and Jan are much more advanced than I will ever be, anyway here are some thoughts on G , D and 1 5 1.
151 has always been the vital pattern for playing my kind of acoustic Blues. Famously, Keith Richard removed his bottom D to give 151 on his electrics lower strings.

G has also seemed more Bluesy to me, having the major 3rd on the 2nd string rather than the 3rd, (for me) give more room for non-major slide work, and 4 string 5151 chords. With D , I find it harder to get the sound I want without more right hand dexterity ( which would need practice and dedication, and I am very lazy)
D does have ‘the sound’ for tunes on the top string, so Blind Willie stuff ( I think MM says it better in his post)

Lastly, I like to encourage people to play in all keys on open tuning, (not just capo up) . As MM says some tunings are more suited to somethings than others, but unless you have Jans playing skills things can get very boring.

[janatore]

Wow.
I am truly blown away by that deep and detailed history and relation explanation you give here Michael. (As i knew (but i did not expect that kind of deepness) you are an institution).

I also had a clue what may goes around in other musical world areas (i listened to your Mitra's Blues album a lot) by some resource from Bob Brozman and his musical/cultural experiences. But still - the ocean is wide...

This threat instantly takes a whole new dimension (for me) and i am thankful for that.

I tried the 1 5 tuning C G C g c c once.
Is that one of the other tuning "group" you mentioned Michael? While open D or G (vestapol/spanish) and their variations are in the 1 3 5 area?

I tried the D G D f# b d once and liked it. I also please myself sometimes to use D A D f# b d (D6 tuning?).
I may work a little with your hints there.

For some tunes i also just change the low bass from D G D g b d
to E G D g b d (minor 7th sound) or C G D g b d for a deep C progression or so...

By talking the differences/similarities between open G and D i meant how you could look at them from a guitar theoretical standpoint to simplify their common uses may be.

Thanks for your comments Pete.

[richclough]

Hi Jan,

Can't really add much to what Michael said other than explain my viewpoint. Coming at it from my particular "singer/songwriter with bass baritone voice" point of view. I think...

- First, what is the melody? What is the tune I'm humming?
- Second, which key can I actually sing this tune in?
- Third, do I want to repeat the tune on guitar? If so, in which octave?
- Fourth, what are the harmony chords/bass notes I want to use for this melody?
- Fifth, what tuning gives me the most interesting options for guitar arrangement based on the decisions in steps 3 and 4.

Actually, that's far too logical and I tend to do most of those steps at the same time. I tend to use Evernote on my phone to record progress along the way. I rarely forget tunes, but it's easy to lose the feel.

Recently, because I've been recording professionally for the first time, I've had a long hard look at some things and quite a few songs that have changed tunings because the guitar arrangements has needed more harmonic colour: DADGAD -> Open D, Drop D -> Open D, Standard -> all kinds of tunings.

Sometimes it's a bit weird. I'm currently working on an arrangement of "She moves through the fair", an Irish folk song and not my usual kind of thing. It has only two chords: C and D so the arrangement is in open G...but I never pay a G chord!

Basically, just do what works. 

Hope that's useful.
Cheers,
Rich

[janatore]

Thanks richclough.

First of all personalky i have totally found my musical route with standard, open G and D tuning or varations.
I am just interested in different views, experiences other musicians have to collect and discuss that here. Every way seems okay as long as it serves the musician's needs/imagination/expression and so on.
It is not that i am seeking a certain advice "how do i have to play in open tunings" (if tjat might be a motivation to write something).
I know my stuff.
My videos only refer to people that directly asked me to share "my" knowledge and skills.

Then: thanks for sharing your experiences here. I liked how you gave look inside 'your' considerations when to choose what or how you end up with a tune. That is more what i am up to here.

And still i am surprised (in a good way) how that thread developes. The different viewpoints and insights give it a whole bigger dimension as an addition to what i considered first. I have no guys to talk about 'this' stuff (i know they are there but i am not in the scene right now) wether in Berlin, Dresden or Erfurt - i did not meet any other slide-/resonator enthusiastic yet (but other great musicians). Not only - but as well due to that i decided to come here.
(* once i attended two short workshops with Dick Bird and Abi Wallenstein in 2009).

[Michael Messer]

Hi Jan,

An interesting tuning that I really enjoy using is one that Hawaiians call "C Wahine" tuning, and sometimes also called "Leonard C" after Leonard Kwan.

There are two versions of C Wahine - C G D G B D and C G D G B E. My preference is for the first one with a D on the top. This is an amazing tuning for playing in the key of C in open G tuning because it gives you a beautiful low C bass note and it is amazing when you move from the C chord in the first position to the G7th using all open strings except for 3rd fret on the 4th string.

This is a tuning used by many of the great slack key Hawaiian guitarists, such as Leonard Kwan, Ray Kane, Ledward Kaapana and others. I used to play in C Wahine quite a lot, but only recently have gone back to it for a song I am working on in the key of C.

Here is a very basic introduction to C Wahine tuning.



Interestingly, and I am not sure why it is used in the context of a tuning, but "wahine" means "woman"

C Wahine is fantastic for playing blues type shuffles because you have C and G as your first two strings and you have G in the open position. It is a very nice way to play blues in C. You won't find Hawaiians doing that, but it's very cool to do.

There is also a D Wahine tuning, but as it is quite different I will go into that in a separate post, so as not to confuse it with C Wahine.

Shine On
Michael

[janatore]

Thank you Michael for this hint.
My former guitar teacher over 10 years ago had that tuning on his resonator guitar.
I adopt it from time to time for C major based progressions.




Here i totally used C G D g h d for a C major progression too.

[Michael Messer]

Lovely playing Jan, and interesting that your teacher showed you this tuning. Apart from Hawaiian slack key players and me, I have not heard anyone else use it. I think it opens up a whole load of possibilities in G tuning.

Shine On
Michael

[richclough]

Hi Jan,

Lovely playing...great touch, feel and tone. It always makes me smile when someone just has it...😉

That tuning was introduced to me by Martin Simpson when I attended one of his workshops. I think he uses it quite often.

Cheers,
Rich

[Michael Messer]

Until Rich mentioned it, I had forgotten about Martin using C Wahine tuning. So there are others!

Shine On
Michael

[lonelyjelly]

I too like using that C Wahine tuning since picking up a slack key guitar tuition dvd a couple of years ago. I forget the teacher’s name but it’s on Homespun and he has an impressive tash if memory serves. Gorgeous player and a versatile tuning.