rbleu
Serious MM Forum Member
Posts: 32
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Post by rbleu on Dec 3, 2019 20:31:18 GMT
! This one completely original (except the tuning machines and pins) is coming down directly from my family... and was perfectly and professionally restored… ![]()   
It is a "convertible" model - in the mind - of the wonderfull "Knutsen" and "Weissenborn" models of that time…
  
Its penetrant sound is very interesting    
It was constructed between 1915-1920 ( just before russian revolution period) on special command by an old relative and eccentric russian aristocrat who spent some months during his American ‘’Villégiature’’ in the US, and especially in California where he was definitively addicted by the Hawaiian Music Virus (HMV) … … Don’t know how much time he rested at Honolulu, the family archives are not precise about that… but the result is amazing and gorgeous !... ... After he retourned - from memory - 3 were built for him in Russia… And just this one - which was saved from the demoniac Bolshevik Revolution - fall down miraculously into my hands…   What do you ( as specialists !) think about this unbelieved russian 7 string ( UFO  ) "convertible" Kona model ?
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Post by Michael Messer on Dec 3, 2019 23:20:33 GMT
rbleu, The story about your Russian Hawaiian French family heirloom is extraordinary and it is a wonderful piece of history for your family. Outside of your family I am not sure if it is of much interest, because to me it doesn't remind me of Knutsen, Kona or Weissenborn guitars, it just appears to be an acoustic guitar with a raised nut and seven strings. For my taste the restoration has not been done authentically. The new tuning machines don't look right, if you search www.stumac.com you may find something a little more "period" looking. The pins should be bone or fake ivory, not shiny steel, and so should the bridge saddle. I also think it is most unusual and therefore questionable that it was originally made as a seven string guitar. Do you know why it was made as a seven string guitar and how your ancestor would have tuned it. How do you tune this guitar, which notes are the strings tuned to? Did you ancestor make any recordings with this guitar? Going to California at that time, your ancestor would have caught the Hawaiian music craze in its early stages. He may well have seen some of the pioneers of Hawaiian steel guitar, but I doubt that any of them played a seven string guitar. At this point in time and reading what you have said, I am more interested in your ancestor and his travels than I am in his guitar, although it is most unusual and I thank you for sharing the story and photos with us. My best wishes Shine On Michael |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2019 12:09:15 GMT
I'm sure I've seen another 7 string Russian guitar recently, on e-bay or FB...
TT
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Post by tallsailor on Dec 4, 2019 12:42:23 GMT
I'm sure I've seen another 7 string Russian guitar recently, on e-bay or FB... TT There are plenty on eBay, new (mostly from Russia, of course). Who knew? I didn't even know they were a thing, until now. Got a Wiki entry and everything! |
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Post by bod on Dec 4, 2019 12:50:02 GMT
rbleu, The story about your Russian Hawaiian French family heirloom is extraordinary and it is a wonderful piece of history for your family. Outside of your family I am not sure if it is of much interest, because to me it doesn't remind me of Knutsen, Kona or Weissenborn guitars, it just appears to be an acoustic guitar with a raised nut and seven strings. For my taste the restoration has not been done authentically. The new tuning machines don't look right, if you search www.stumac.com you may find something a little more "period" looking. The pins should be bone or fake ivory, not shiny steel, and so should the bridge saddle. I also think it is most unusual and therefore questionable that it was originally made as a seven string guitar. Do you know why it was made as a seven string guitar and how your ancestor would have tuned it. How do you tune this guitar, which notes are the strings tuned to? Did you ancestor make any recordings with this guitar? Going to California at that time, your ancestor would have caught the Hawaiian music craze in its early stages. He may well have seen some of the pioneers of Hawaiian steel guitar, but I doubt that any of them played a seven string guitar. At this point in time and reading what you have said, I am more interested in your ancestor and his travels than I am in his guitar, although it is most unusual and I thank you for sharing the story and photos with us. My best wishes Shine On Michael My guess would be that the instrument has seven strings because it is, so to speak, a Russian guitar first and a steel guitar second - or, otherwise put, a Hawaiian graft onto Russian stock. How so? Glad you asked ;)There was a significant tradition of seven string guitar in Russia and its territories, dating from at least the late C18th. The seven stringer (semistrunka) was, apparently, far more prominent in Russian culture than the six string guitar until we’ll into the Soviet era. The “classical” models are gut or nylon strung, while the “gypsy” style used steel strings - fit one of the latter with a high nut and ... voila! Interestingly, to me at least, the traditional tuning is a variety of open-G that is like the high bass G used for steel guitar, but with an additional D on the bottom end, i.e., D, G, B, D, G, B, D. (I have one that I picked up on eBay because I was intrigued, it’s fun and gives me a different kind of open G workout...) Pure speculation, but if rbleu’s ancestor was already familiar with or even a player of the Russian guitar the Hawaiian style would probably have made ready-sense in some respects whilst offering new approaches to the Russian instrument and an extension of the range and possibilities. Also, if getting an instrument built or adapted for steel guitar in Russia at that time the Russian guitar would be the likely starting point - the spread of the six string instrument there, apparently, came rather later (along with Western popular music). I love this sort of thing - to me it captures a moment in which one musical tradition alights on another... |
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Post by Michael Messer on Dec 4, 2019 14:34:57 GMT
Thanks Bod. That is very interesting. I am completely familiar with seven string lap steel guitars and Dobros, but I did not know about the Russian connection with them. I think that what you have said completely explains that aspect of rbleu's guitar.
A friend of mine has just ordered a seven string Clinesmith Frypan lap steel, which I am sure will be a beauty. He puts a plain 13 on the bottom, tunes it to FGBDGBD and uses it for easy 7th chords.
Shine On
Michael
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Post by pete1951 on Dec 4, 2019 16:40:56 GMT
My 7string is G B D E G B D, The E gives you 6ths and minors
Pete
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Post by bod on Dec 4, 2019 18:09:04 GMT
While we’re at it, the semistrunka in musical context:
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Post by leeophonic on Dec 4, 2019 18:21:37 GMT
I had a seven string Russian acoustic back in the Dove era, it was cheap like an equivalent regal/harmony, I strung it heavy and down tuned for slide, did not hold tuning too well and one night it imploded with the bridge going supersonic as it divorced the guitar body.
Seven strings seem common to that part of the musical world.
Lee
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Post by bonzo on Dec 4, 2019 19:33:23 GMT
Thanks for posting bod, two engaging pieces of music I would not normally have come across.
Best wishes to you all, John
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Post by bryanbradfield on Dec 8, 2019 4:04:59 GMT
Here is a 1920-ish (I believe) Oscar Schmidt Stella, which I've always felt was made for Russian immigrants. |
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rbleu
Serious MM Forum Member
Posts: 32
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Post by rbleu on Dec 10, 2019 12:27:17 GMT
... Thank You Bryan Bradfield for your interesting post and pictures  |
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rbleu
Serious MM Forum Member
Posts: 32
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Post by rbleu on Dec 10, 2019 12:34:01 GMT
My 7string is G B D E G B D, The E gives you 6ths and minors Pete Thank you very much for your interesting G6th suggestion ! |
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Post by pete1951 on Dec 10, 2019 14:36:55 GMT
One more thing, a 7 string with GBDEGBD tuning, gives ( on the bottom 6strings on the 5fret) C E G A C E, which is the much used C6th tuning. So (if you can ignore the top string) you can play just about anything normally in that tuning that does not involve open strings.
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rbleu
Serious MM Forum Member
Posts: 32
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Post by rbleu on Dec 11, 2019 23:29:16 GMT
Thank you for your qualified contribution Michael … First of all, I was not born in France (sorry for my bad english)... You will have the complete story… ... Of course it has not the signature and the reputation - justified besides - of Kona Knutsen, or Weissenborn … But especially this does not prevent him from ringing at least as well or better! For the tuners and pins: ... I agree, but it is impossible to find mechanics with 4 and 3 tuners that goes well with the specific and original spacing of the holes in the headstock, it is why to keep the original space I used individual new mechanics, which works very well however. And as they were nickel bright, I had therefore put pins and metal saddle nut in the same color … My plan was first to have a functional and perfectly playable instrument, keeping the original mind of simplicity... and in the final the aesthetic result satisfies me well … So incidentally, if I found compatible vintage parts (and it will be not easy), of course I would put them... From my part, after the restoration, I tuned it (low to high) : DGDGBDg what gives me equally the low G tuning but also the pattern of D tuning (vestapol) a fourth higher, I think interesting to have these two possibilities... But why not also now in GBDEGBD (advised by Pete )... ... As for my traveler ancestor, as every persons of his quality and social rank, he had received a very high level music education, he played the piano well also, it was inevitable regarding his condition… And of course the russian guitar (therefore in 7 strings and tuned traditionally in G: DGDBGBD) which was one polyphonic instrument, that he could bring with him in his trips easier than a piano… I have never heard about recordings from his part… He liked to play music, and himself played when he had opportunity to… At this time when he travelled to US and also Hawaii, he had - in situ - the possibility to hear and meet "disciples" of Joseph Kekuku or Frank Ferera, and why not others... who played in open E major, or in others else… He immediately understood - considering his musical culture – how to transpose the open E to open G on his guitar, which he used in 7 string configuration and could immediately apply his musical skills… what seems obviously evident! He undoubtedly well deeply examine the guitars of the Hawaiian musicians … He watched sharply toward them as well... trying to play… undoubtedly… that pleased him… ... and after coming back at home, decided to play slide, and to construct his own slide guitars collection with his "luthier" (of Moscow region) whom constructed these guitars according his local experience. ... Then he ordered for his personal use 3 guitars with his own specifications, in the 7 string mode, and reversible, because of their adjustable neck, these russian guitars were built in the "mind style" of the "Kona Knutsen" which became common in California and Hawaii at this time … It is as simple as this… and only this guitar which avoided destruction, because it was not in Russia at this moment… Could came from the past to present... |
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) "convertible" Kona model ?
