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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2019 15:46:55 GMT
That sort of fracture likely requires dowels drilling and gluing in. It's a precise job and if you don't get it right you have to do other things that can also go wrong. I can't speak for Dave K or anyone, but if you had the offer of getting it fixed by experts, I'd be surprised if you get the offer again. TT
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Post by pete1951 on Jul 29, 2019 21:45:31 GMT
The old style of joint used on MM guitars (and most Buskers) was doweled, as deuce says, this joint looks a little different, a sort of ‘toothed’ or finger joint . Several of us on the forum have done similar repairs and could ‘talk you through’ , but you need to tell us what you’re doing. Pete
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Post by wilbotan on Jul 30, 2019 9:41:11 GMT
Ah OK got it! I want to avoid doing anything irreversible such as drilling and putting dowel through for now if possible.
I removed cover plate and cone, unscrewed fretboard, released neck and pulled it out and the two pieces came apart. Luckily none of the wood had snapped.
I then carefully removed all the old glue, slightly sanded off some of the paint on the neck side of the join, made a shim that held the joint fairly tight, glued up and left for 8 hours. Fail.
I then repeated the attempt but this time with two shims and wood glue mixed with sawdust to fill the gaps in the join, put the neck in the body, clamped up, left 8 hours. When I tensioned the strings the joint failed again.
As the shims had made the joint fairly tight, I think I need to use some stronger glue that also expands a bit to fill the smaller gaps. I'm thinking gorilla glue epoxy, though I don't want to apply it before I'm more confident that's the way to go.
It seems like the glue in the original join was epoxy as it was very brittle and clear, it had also expanded in some parts of the join up to about 1mm.
Apologies for massive post - thought more detail might help!
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Post by Pickers Ditch on Jul 30, 2019 10:25:23 GMT
Sounds to me that the original glue has sealed the wood / pores which results in the new layers of glue being unable to penetrate. I reckon you've got the choice of sanding off all the surfaces to fresh wood, shimming to fill the bigger gaps thus produced, gluing with a pukkah wood glue under clamps for at least 48 hours and praying that it works or taking it to a reputable reso luthier who knows wot e's doin' which maybe you should have done in the first place. Resos are not ordinary guitars and woodwork, but you probabaly understand that now.
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Post by wilbotan on Jul 30, 2019 11:19:49 GMT
Haha, you may be right! Unfortunately don't have the cash right now, but have lots of time! Might take a while, but I think (hope?) if I go slowly and carefully I'll get there in the end. I'm in no way suggesting that what I'll end up with is in any way commensurate with the work of a luthier, and I really don't want this thread to come across as though my attempt is a desirable alternative to taking the guitar to a luthier. If anything this process is re-confirming to me quite how amazing their work is, and what a low price they charge for what is a lot of careful work. If this guitar were of historical value I wouldn't be touching it.
However, my decision to try to fix the guitar is definitely teaching me a lot, and I'm enjoying learning about the guitar's construction. I've not damaged it in any way and have no plans to do so. The alternative would be it sitting in a corner unplayable.
Thanks for all the help so far, it's interesting hearing about the different neck joints. I didn't realise that I'd be reading so much about glue!
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Post by creolian on Jul 30, 2019 12:07:19 GMT
This " luthier " quoted me 600$ to reset the neck on my 400$ Reso guitar... at least the pictures in his blog helped me understand how they are put together. The lowest quote for a neck reset I found was 250. This luthier also thinks a national dobro is a guitar... ? Huh ? Having some model building and woodworking experience along with tools... Between unaffordable and unplayable, Id take your approach... intrepid and cautious. ( this forum has been invaluable in helping and my guitar did not need major surgery) www.strangeguitarworks.com/national-resonator-neck-reset/Hth Jeff
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Post by Michael Messer on Jul 31, 2019 9:30:50 GMT
I feel somewhat embarrassed that I haven't been able to help out, but I have been so busy for the past couple of weeks that I have been out of the loop.
I think you are doing an amazing job and you are getting some fantastic advice from our community.
My best wishes
Shine On Michael
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Post by wilbotan on Jul 31, 2019 11:13:35 GMT
No reason to feel embarrassed! Which other company would offer any similar kind of advice in this case?!
I carefully epoxied the joint last night, will give it the recommended 24hrs dry time and try stringing it up tonight/tomorrow morning. The last attempt with wood glue and sawdust really nearly held but there was still a bit of play in the dried glue that raised the heel under string pressure. I think I'm nearly there, but not counting any chickens just yet.
Thanks again for the encouragement and advice all! W.
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Post by pete1951 on Jul 31, 2019 12:09:43 GMT
One problem with repair is that modern glue does not stick to old dry glue. When you clean off the old glue , wood is often removed and joints may no longer fit as tight as they should be., most wood glues have little strength if the surfaces are too far apart. Epoxy glue has some strength of it’s own, so will bridge small gaps and still hold. Glue and sawdust has much less strength and should only be used on a joint that has little stress on it. I would use some extra method to hold what sounds like a bad joint. Pete
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Post by wilbotan on Aug 1, 2019 20:06:28 GMT
Thanks again all for the help - the epoxy seems to be holding up really well! The action is pretty much bang on where MM suggests - 5mm on the low E, so pretty chuffed with that! As it's been round about 2 months since the accident my fingers are still relearning the slide licks. To my ears the Lightning is singing even better than before, I'm guessing because the joint is now tighter. Very happy right now! Also glued in some abalone fret dot markers running up from the 12th fret.
Wouldn't recommend going the DIY route if you've got the money for a luthier, but if you're strapped for cash it's not that tricky once you know which glue to use and you go slowly!
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