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Post by bonzo on Jun 11, 2018 12:03:56 GMT
Hi guys, I'm jumping back in again! As so often happens on our forum I have learnt so much more about something than I would have thought possible! But Frank has brought us back full circle. I'm looking for a looper to help me practice, and have now got a good idea of what to go for. Also plenty of inspiration on possible uses further down the road. Frank I can't agree with you about performers being sad. They had to learn the skills of using loopers, I think of it as a version of a one man band. Certainly stops any rows at band meetings! Lol! Best wishes to you all, John
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2018 12:43:55 GMT
It might be just me but I find 95% of video of artists using loopers...sad and boring! Fine, each to their own. Otherwise, go home woodshedding, learn how to fingerpick, use bass, add percussion, stomp your foot. Frank But I disagree here. Your implication is that one does looping because they can't do the other stuff properly. TT
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Post by Michael Messer on Jun 11, 2018 13:39:44 GMT
Frank, I am actually with you on some of what you have said. I do see them as a cheap way to perform without a rhythm section. But I also see them as a very clever creative tool.
I didn't find KT's moment particularly inspiring and I don't own a copy of any of her records, but as I said, it in true old show biz wow factor, it captured people's attention and she sold lots of records. She did do it very well, but after one song I have heard enough.
As I get older I am really only interested in musicians that display total mastery of their instruments and their music. I guess I have been that way for a few decades, but I do have less patience now. As a performing musician myself, I am always careful about my choice of words, or whether I should speak at all, because one should not stick out what you don't want to get shot off!
Shine On Michael.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2018 14:20:06 GMT
It might be just me but I find 95% of video of artists using loopers...sad and boring! I find K.T videos embarassing! If you have a good song you can always deliver with just a simply strummed acoustic guitar, if you can't play it any better. Otherwise, go home woodshedding, learn how to fingerpick, use bass, add percussion, stomp your foot. Many different techniques to be learned. Anything you want but do it live! On the other hand I find loopers extremely useful when practicing at home, expecially when learning how to improvise. Frank Bit harsh Frank but I know what you mean. You need to be pretty creative to avoid sounding like a cheap drum machine. Terry Riley/Tubular Bells anyone?
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Post by Stevie on Jun 11, 2018 14:29:28 GMT
I too find YouTube clips of loopers tedious, but since I don't seem to make any headway with these devices 98% of the time (and I have three of them if I include the "Trio"!), I still find others impressive when they appear to make it all seem so effortless, especially before public scrutiny.
As you'd imagine, after approaching 50 years of playing, I've developed some pretty well honed techniques, but only ever entertaining to myself. If it puts a smile on my face that's good enough for me, and I can't play through things without errors most of the time! I don't / can't sing and I've never made that leap to be on the entertaining side of the fence. It doesn't bother me at all. If it bothers other folk or they don't feel inclined to stop jabbering then that's their problem. With KT however, I find her entertaining to watch but as said by MM, one's enough and I don't own or want any of her recordings. If I'm honest, I feel that her songs make that little transition from endlessly layered loops into actual songs where the loops add to the whole rather than dominate it, but that's subjective. Good luck to her I say- there's many another "...strutting and fretting his hour upon the stage..." so why shouldn't she attract recognition?
As I grew up and tastes my changed, I instinctively disliked the plastic trash on TOTP. The Sweet were a good example- I mean; "Little Willy"- I ask you! But I was made aware that The Sweet put on a very different live show indeed. It follows that either by elected design or from managerial pressure, they trotted out garbage to make a shilling. That in turn taught me that you can only judge someone by their selective output and it may well be very different indeed from their actual capabilities.
If I could only just learn to kick those switches at precisely the right moment...
e&oe...
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Post by bonzo on Jun 11, 2018 14:40:15 GMT
I think the first time I saw a looper being used was probably KT(as you kids seem to be calling her) on the Jules Holland show. Have to say it was a WOW moment, and I don't get many of them at my age! Lol. Like MM I also much prefer my music well played, but figure most of the 'new' music around isn't aimed at me and I make an effort not to be too disdainful of it around the kids. They respect my opinion on music and I figure that at least they're listening to something that might lead them on in music. Rap and its various sub divisions do not qualify!
Best wishes to you all, John
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Post by Stevie on Jun 11, 2018 15:10:36 GMT
Kid; Moi? Like our esteemed leader, I'm in my seventh decade (think about it now...).
It's true we have to be open to the attempts of youngsters when they try to express themselves. In the 1970s, I disliked Soul and Tamla and so on. Now I am far more open to it- especially when I see the genres in context. That's not just age- it's recognising talent, but I do have to wonder whether I have enough decades left in me to let me appreciate the finer points of Rap and HipHop.
Loopers are just another way of expressing one's self aren't they? It takes raw talent before making loops. Whatever product takes your fancy (and a fair few have been put forward), just make sure you can cope with it live.
e&oe...
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Post by slide496 on Jun 11, 2018 15:16:13 GMT
I like watching them create the loops in performances, depends I suppose on what they choose to make the loops from and the material they place it in- it makes for interesting performance art as well as musical presentation and I accept it as a legitimate technique for some music.
IMHO if you are doing that as a solo, there's a dimension of flexibility in rhythm and loud/soft that is not built into to the loop generator so its the same for the whole piece, so I liked KT's inclusion of the instruments while she played. More power to her for coming up with a popular musical style - not easy to do.
It's a technique that isn't suited to the music I like to play and listen to, early rural blues, which varies tempo and follows speech emphasis patterns alot of the time. - so that was lost when I attempted to make loops.
H
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Post by Stevie on Jun 11, 2018 15:20:40 GMT
I agree Harriet and I cannot envisage your carefully executed recreations of a feeling ruined by a looper, but at the same time MM has made musical statements within the genres of both looping and "Blues" that have stood the test of time?
e&oe...
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Post by Michael Messer on Jun 11, 2018 15:33:04 GMT
Stevie, I may be wrong, but I don't really see my loops in the same way as I see a looper pedal. My loops are carefully extracted riffs from old records that are made into real time audio files. I don't think that is the same as using a looper pedal. At the end of the day what counts is the content of the music and not how, or with what tools it is created. I think my own moment with loops has come and gone. I got 20 years of interesting sounds using my own way of building loops, but I have never used or even experimented with a looper pedal. It is not something I have ever been interested to try. That doesn't mean I don't like it, I just don't have a place for it in my own music.
Shine On Michael.
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Post by Stevie on Jun 11, 2018 15:39:57 GMT
I can see that- as a musical statement, a carefully considered loop cannot be compared to one that has been created on the fly, and the method of that creation uses different technology, but it seems to me they're still both loops? It's as though the one becomes another musical instrument while the other is somewhat akin to an effect? Help! I'm out of my depth here ;<D
e&oe...
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Post by bonzo on Jun 11, 2018 15:42:20 GMT
I'm in no way going to get to deep into this, but chants,hand claps,stomping, moans and lots of other repetitive sounds were incorporated into blues and other musical forms, almost in a loop you might say. Yes it was,in fact had to be live, but we know about it mostly through recordings. As soon as guitars were electrified and mics used, musicians were able to switch if they wished. This in turn led to the music itself changing, and on and on we go! Technology has always played its part in music, for better or worse. Best wishes to you all, John
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Post by slide496 on Jun 11, 2018 16:35:24 GMT
I can see that- as a musical statement, a carefully considered loop cannot be compared to one that has been created on the fly, and the method of that creation uses different technology, but it seems to me they're still both loops? It's as though the one becomes another musical instrument while the other is somewhat akin to an effect? Help! I'm out of my depth here ;<D e&oe...I think both are carefully considered and crafted each in their own way, but the pedal is the controller of a pedal generated loop and it knows to play as it was created, and is confined to tempos. Whereas from MM's description he still controls the placement and length, so the loop itself can vary according to the song and in a live performance it would be tailored by a human operator. You can't exactly say to a pedal, when I slow down, follow me - or at least not yet. Just some thoughts, H
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Post by pete1951 on Jun 11, 2018 16:47:08 GMT
Done well I can appreciate delay/looping but sadly it’s not a thing I want to do. Though come to think of it, I have got a loop of a sitar ( or rather a vena ) that comes out when playing Canned Heats ‘On the Road Again’. CH. use (I think) a guitar having its strings gently hammered on with a drum stick, to create a drone, I’m sure they would have used a looper if they could (they may have used a tape loop in the studio, and I have not seen them live). The ‘sitar ‘ effect was used by Nine Below Zero, and many Indian classical performers use what is basically a looped drone rather than a live vena player. Does Michael M use one in his Indian / blues band? ? For some reason a row of 5 ?s. comes out as a sad face with 2 question marks...........
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Post by jono1uk on Jun 11, 2018 16:53:10 GMT
I think the first time I saw a looper being used was probably KT(as you kids seem to be calling her) LOL it's how she markets herself John!!!
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