Contemporary Nationals and Lightning strikes !

[archiekidd]

Hello all.
O.K , here goes.
I've re-entered the forum recently with a few posts regarding old, 'original' National guitars. Being as succinct as possible I have a query not related to the holy grail of owning a vintage.

Can anyone outline the intrinsic differences in build/design, and subsequent replication of sound between the new Nationals (such as NRP's) and Michael's Lightning or other MM guitars? I understand Michael's ethos was and is to build high quality instruments at more affordable prices, which I think is to be greatly lauded. So, apart from the price tags, and disregarding actual time,materials and methods used in manufacture ... when you've got an MM Lightning in one hand and a modern National in the other (let's theoretically assume we're playing them at the same time) ... what are the most discernible differences ? I've read and heard from certain sources that Michael's guitars are actually closer to the originals in some respects than contemporary Nationals. 
Catching a Snakehips (hello mate!) video on youtube has certainly helped tie some ideas together, but I believe the Lightning had a National cone installed ?...(please correct me if I'm wrong).

I don't want to spark off a riot ! , my interest is genuinely spurred on, to find out as much as I can before my next guitar purchase.
Cheers everyone, you're all splendid fellows !!

 

[Deleted]

Someone here (Mark Makin or Michael?) once did a price / quality comparison of sorts with old nationals, MM guitars and NRPs. I think the old nationals and MM guitars cost roughly equivalent and delivered similar quality, and the NRPs were much more expensive. So, this being the case, MM guitars are more similar to old nationals than NRPs, and NRPs are 'over-made' (my words, but I think they are the gist of the posters words too).
TT

[mississippiblue]

I bought my MM Blues 12 fret model back in October of 2015.
I've played a Duolian from the 30's and my MM Blues is very similar.
I tried all three MM guitars in the shop and I took home the MM Blues 12 fret model.
I can proudly and honestly say that IT IS SIMPLY AMAZING!!!!
Pick up an MM Blues of your choice and be prepared to bask in sonic resophonic glory.

Kindest Regards,
MississippiBlue

[Ian McWee]

All of the comments from the guys above are pretty much spot-on ~ at 'Diamond Towers' we're very much in debt to Michael, Mark M. Mike Lewis (and all of the 'cone-head posse') for recommendations, and we receive regular calls from customers asking to pop in to try out our slides.

The majority bring their own guitars into the office to road-test slides ~ and i've had the pleasure to play a few M.M reso's, Buskers, N.R.P's and a couple of 'real deal' nationals because of this.

My own personal reso is a mint '33 Duolian I bought back in 1982 ('sorted' by Steve Evans of Beltona in 1997) - and this guitar is both our 'test-bed' for new products ~ or I bring it to the shop if anyone asks to see it!!

Giving an honest opinion as a total acoustic 'cone-head', the N.R.P's are great instruments ~ but not 'authentic' pre-war Nationals ~ they do the job very nicely, but don't expect to find that original National tone.

The M.M's i've heard are very similar in tone to N.R.P's, and are set-up better than all of the 'stock' N.R.P's that've been brought into our shop; the pre-war Nationals that've come in sound 'warmer' than both new N.R.P's and M.M's - but that has to be because of the age of the instrument (played in for over 80 years ~ you'll only find that in your N.R.P or M.M in 2086!)


So ~ to finalise my 'old-bloke ramble' ~ if you close your eyes and play both an M.M and a new N.R.P 'head-to-head' you'll be hard-pressed to notice any differences, and trying to locate an original National not requiring work can be a minefield unless you know what your looking for!

Hope this helps & 'Slide On'!

Ian.

[Dessery]

I basically asked the same question a couple of months back here:

michaelmesser.proboards.com/thread/8492/

The general consensus seemed to be that on the NRP you are paying for the name and the 'finish' for want of a better word, the binding, engraving etc. That and because they are American built, the construction cost is significantly higher which is reflected in the cost of the guitar as opposed to Michaels which are made in the far East. That being said the Michaels design and quality control process are second to none so you get an amazing guitar for the money. You could get the whole range for the price of a national

Hope that helps
David

[obrienp]

I have had a MM Blues 14 fret and a Blues '28. I currently have a 1999 NRP Radiotone Bendaway, which I bought very secondhand. The Radiotone had to have loads of work done by Dave King to get it right, which is the subject of a separate thread (if you are interested). This may make the comparison invalid but IMO the MMs are excellent guitars but are made to be affordable, so as others have said, the quality of the materials and finish may not be quite at the NRP level.

I haven't had the pleasure of playing an original pre-war National, so I can't say whether Michael's guitars sound like them. It would be an unfair comparison anyway, becasue Michale's guitars haven't had 80-90 years to mature. They do sound pretty amazing and much better than other Far Eastern resonators I have played or heard others playing.

My Radiotone has a brand new hot rod cone in it and sounds very sweet. IMO it sounds marginally better and marginally louder than the Blues 28 I had. In fact it is almost too polite for delta blues! Being completely objective, I don't think NRP guitars are 3 to 5 times better but they are 3 to 5 times more expensive new (depending on model). However, we don't normally make these decisions completely objectively and maybe the better materials,the NRP tone, plus the NRP name are worth it for some.

The Blues 14 fret I had sounded fantastic for blues slide work. Probably the best sounding blues resonator I have heard was a 12 fret Blues that one of the other guys had at Blues Week.I regret selling the Blues but I am happy enough with my Radiotone. I don't think I would have been prepared to pay the full asking price for the Radiotone though.

Slide on, Pat

[pete1951]

The main difference between MM and '30s National guitars is (I don't have any knowledge of the latest batch) the neck joint. When MM started there were a few reasonable resos. made in China, and I think (MM will know the whole story) they copied Amistar/Continental. MM has tweaked the Chinese design (and is working on improving each batch) so it is as much like 30s National as pos. but some things are very costly to change ( the back pressing for example, is very close, but would cost $$$$$ to get it exactly like National) I have never worked on any NRP guitars but at 3 (4?) times the price you would expect something at least twice as good, which from most owners comments is not the case.
PT

[archiekidd]

Once again, all extremely helpful. I think you chaps are pretty much iterating my own thoughts thus far. Cheers guys...