boxwood question

[mrpwrslide]

Hi y´all

i just stumbled over a wood-density list.

wood density                       metric                     imp.

maple                                0.60 - 0.75               39 - 47
boxwood                             0.95 - 1.20               59 - 72
rosewood east-indian            0.90                        55
rosewood bolivian                0.82                         50

so the question came up to me, why is boxwood so highly recommended as bridge-material
on biscuits?
The use of the obviously softer maple makes sense, but the replacement with boxwood did mean on the 
other hand, that a rosewood-capped maple bridge could not be worse than boxwood alone.

The biscuit on my MM 28 is made of rosewood, the biscuit on my O.M.I´82 duolian model 90 is obviously made 
of  black-stained maple. Both have maple-bridges.
The biscuit of my JM-898 could be maple ( black varnish makes it hard to tell ) with a rosewood-capped maple bridge, sounding a bit more brilliant, but not in a negative way. It´s the loudest one of all.

Is the selection of biscuit and bridge woods some kind of trial and error and lead us to experiment ?

Let me know your opinions and experiences on that topic.

Greetings

Gerry

[bod]

Feb 5, 2016 11:48:20 GMT mrpwrslide said:

....
so the question came up to me, why is boxwood so highly recommended as bridge-material
on biscuits?'

It's to do with the sound, isn't it? (I'd certainly hope so)

The use of the obviously softer maple makes sense, but the replacement with boxwood did mean on the 
other hand, that a rosewood-capped maple bridge could not be worse than boxwood alone.

Not at all sure I follow your thinking here. I'd have thought that boxwood alone could be better than rosewood-capped maple to someone who wanted a sound that boxwood gives, but rosewood-capped maple does not. Or am I missing something? I'd expect to find that those recommending rosewood-capped maple are after a different sound to those who recommend boxwood.

I've not really experimented with such things - I did replace a maple bridge with a boxwood one on an MM Blues once, but only because I sanded too much off the existing bridge and had boxwood to hand (an old, broken ruler). It sounded fine to me. I imagine that if you want to know about these things, trying the different materials to see which sounds pleasing to you is the way to go.  

[pete1951]

Feb 5, 2016 11:48:20 GMT mrpwrslide said:

Hi y´all

i just stumbled over a wood-density list.

Most combinations of woods have been tried over the years and density seems to be only one of the factors that affects tone and volume. Some think ebony caps on maple gives too harsh a tone, but maybe a little more volume? Maple is the best 'all-rounder' and box the best, when you have some. It maybe that flexibility is also important, is box more bendy than ebony or rose wood?. For whatever reason box seems best in a standard resonator, if it's a bit dull you could try an ebony saddle, if it's too bright some softer wood could calm it down. PT
It would be good to have a lecture from a great maker (Mike Lewis?) and have him give us the benefit of his experience. MM knows more than most and may have something to add

[bluesdude]

Feb 5, 2016 11:48:20 GMT mrpwrslide said:

Hi y´all

i just stumbled over a wood-density list.

wood density                       metric                     imp.

maple                                0.60 - 0.75               39 - 47
boxwood                             0.95 - 1.20               59 - 72
rosewood east-indian            0.90                        55
rosewood bolivian                0.82                         50

so the question came up to me, why is boxwood so highly recommended as bridge-material
on biscuits?
The use of the obviously softer maple makes sense, but the replacement with boxwood did mean on the 
other hand, that a rosewood-capped maple bridge could not be worse than boxwood alone.

The biscuit on my MM 28 is made of rosewood, the biscuit on my O.M.I´82 duolian model 90 is obviously made 
of  black-stained maple. Both have maple-bridges.
The biscuit of my JM-898 could be maple ( black varnish makes it hard to tell ) with a rosewood-capped maple bridge, sounding a bit more brilliant, but not in a negative way. It´s the loudest one of all.

Is the selection of biscuit and bridge woods some kind of trial and error and lead us to experiment ?

Let me know your opinions and experiences on that topic.

Greetings

Gerry


Hey there,not sure what you mean by boxwood! there is no such thing in North America that I know of, but the original saddle and biscuit material used by National was soft Maple as we call it in Canada, NRP presently uses hard maple or sugar maple!(think maple syrup) way too hard for my liking sonicaly speaking,
I've tried a lot of different wood types over the years and soft maple wins every time. by the way that density chart you show is for soft maple not hard maple! which is up closer to what you call box wood,

take care, Kenny,

[Pickers Ditch]

Wasn't orangewood used on early Nationals?

I think someone told me that a long, long time ago.

Michael? Mark?

Where are you?

[pete1951]

Box is a slow growing evergreen tree, much used for small turned things, especially chess men and old style wooden rulers.
PT

[bluesdude]

Feb 5, 2016 19:53:11 GMT Pickers Ditch said:

Wasn't orangewood used on early Nationals?

I think someone told me that a long, long time ago.

Michael? Mark?

Where are you?

I believe orange wood was used on early tricone saddles,I read this somewhere can;t remember where!




Kenny,

[bluesdude]

Feb 5, 2016 20:00:48 GMT pete1951 said:

Box is a slow growing evergreen tree, much used for small turned things, especially chess men and old style wooden rulers.
PT

Hey there, are you sure its a evergreen tree? the hardest evergreen tree in North America is half that density!



Kenny,

[lexluthier]

Hi!
Doing some research on Beard guitars a few weeks ago I read John Dopyera used grapefruit wood which was in good supply locally and fitted the bill.
As far as bridge materials go, or in fact any 'tone' woods, good luthiers have knowledge of the vibrational transfer speeds through these materials, there are in fact empirical measurements for this which I don't have to hand but can remember out of these three for example ebony has the slowest transfer rate and rosewood sits in the middle with maple being the fastest.

Faster than all of these are the woods used to make the top of our acoustic guitars, cedar, spruce etc. But these aren't used in bridge design for any acoustic instrument I can think of as they are too soft/weak and have poor sustaining qualities.

So it becomes apparent that some kind of balance needs to be found when deciding on what wood to use. Maple has always been the choice for the bridges on classical instruments as it hits the middle ground of strength, sustain and vibrational transfer properties and maple seems to be, by consensus, the best middle ground for Resonator saddles.

Going to woods harder or softer, denser or lighter than maple gives us the chance to achieve some degree of 'tuning'.
I have some beautiful maple blanks I prepared from a 150+ year old (broken) violin neck and was going to fit one in my Tricone which has, against all advice, an ebony saddle. But I've yet to do so as the guitar sounds wonderful as is!
(Fitted one in my Lightning, Wow!!!)

There are no hard and fast rules, there are choices.

Chris

[mrpwrslide]

Hi lexluthier,

and all of our little community. I think i found some answer.
The comments on this thread seem to be helpful.
Whereas I´ve been wondering about the different density-factors, it might not be the density at all as well
as the transfer-rate. I am thinking there are many choices that deliver more or less little changes of the timbre. Not one of them for better or worse, just slight changes to the musicians ears.
Any instrument got it´s own charmes, so i hold on to " if not broken, don´t fix it ".


Thank you all

Gerry

[pete1951]

Feb 6, 2016 7:04:26 GMT mrpwrslide said:

" if not broken, don´t fix it ".

If only I could take that advice it would have saved me a lot of work.
PT

[Deleted]

Boxwood turns up as a shrub when googled... I have used Popsicle sticks for resonater saddles with good results. Typically birch or beechwood.

[snakehips]

Hi there !

I think the orangewood, or whatever, was used as fingerboards on early Dobros.
Or maybe that was "red bean" wood ? Is that what you were thinking about ?

Boxwood might just be for Tricone saddles ? (And maple for biscuits ?)

[oscar]

boxwood is also called buxus or buxus sempervirens. it is the material of choice for carving or turning wood. high quality recorders are made from boxwood (and wooden boxes too, hence the name). i have replaced two maple biscuit saddle inserts by two boxwood inserts and prefer the latter. filing or cutting slots in that much harder wood takes longer but you can get more accurate results.