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Post by maui_chimes on Feb 2, 2016 3:30:16 GMT
Why not just shoot it with some thinner or lacquer retarder and see what happens? That stuff can solve a lot of problems and maybe avoid a refinish.
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Post by Michael Messer on Feb 2, 2016 10:32:54 GMT
I have used stands with black foamy-rubberlike-plastic for decades and never had any problems. I also have wall hangers with the same stuff, no problems there either. Oh...occasionally when they get very old they start to perish, which can come off on the guitar, but it wipes off and does no harm.
I do not believe that guitar stands, or any other outside influences have caused the lacquer to fail.
Shine On Michael
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Post by Pickers Ditch on Feb 2, 2016 10:48:02 GMT
I agree with you Michael. Sorry if this seems bombastic but 42 technical and factory management years experience in the coating and polymer industry tells me this. The actual positions of the blistering / delamination problems shown in the pictures above do not tie in with any contact points from guitar stands, hangers or cases / gig bags which I have seen to date either. I still recommend stripping and repainting with good old fashioned NC paint and varnish.
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Post by beefheart on Feb 2, 2016 13:03:23 GMT
If anyone is interested here is the resopnse from Hercules Stands /**************************************** Thanks for your e-mail, please Hercules official response to requests regarding the finish on guitars. Note that this response is aimed at nitro cellulose requests, but unfortunately Hercules are unable to guarantee 100% that the materials used will not conflict with the finish on every instrument: As a professional instrument stand manufacturer, HERCULES strives to provide the very highest quality products and give complete customer satisfaction. We understand that there are many concerns towards the ability of nitro-cellulous lacquer to withstand prolonged contact with certain materials, With this in mind, HERCULES has undertaken many experiments on the foam we use. During the research and development process of the HERCULES foam pads, many tests were done on instruments finished with various lacquers, particularly including nitro-cellulose. These experiences included subjecting the instruments on the stand to heat, cold and normal temperatures for periods of up to six months. All of the tests conducted by the factory showed that the foam was non-reactive to the various finishes that we experimented with. However, it is also true that there is not just one formula of each type of lacquer. Each manufacturer and supplier has their own variation, which mixes different proportions of the chemicals involved. There are literally thousands of different variations of lacquer in use today, making it impossible to test them all. We must also not forget vintage instruments which could be several decades old. As a result, while HERCULES can say that the extensive testing shows the foam should be acceptable for these finishes, we cannot offer an absolute guarantee. If you are concerned about the possible reaction of your instrument with the foam, one option for you would be to wrap the foam in a natural cloth (such as cotton) to avoid direct contact with the instrument. In any event we do recommend that you to refer to the instrument manufacturer's owner's manual for information regarding the recommended storage procedure and the do’s and don’ts of caring for your particular instrument. I hope this provides the information you require. Thanks for your email and interest in HERCULES stands. ************************************************************/ So, I'll get searching for cotton sleeves to put over the foamed bits. Any body any good at sewing? Peter
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Post by Pickers Ditch on Feb 2, 2016 13:54:10 GMT
Standard keep out of jail statement from a manufacturer. Note the highlighted words and phrases, so you pays your money and make your choice. Thanks for your e-mail, please Hercules official response to requests regarding the finish on guitars. Note that this response is aimed at nitro cellulose requests, but unfortunately Hercules are unable to guarantee 100% that the materials used will not conflict with the finish on every instrument: As a professional instrument stand manufacturer, HERCULES strives to provide the very highest quality products and give complete customer satisfaction. We understand that there are many concerns towards the ability of nitro-cellulous lacquer to withstand prolonged contact with certain materials, With this in mind, HERCULES has undertaken many experiments on the foam we use. During the research and development process of the HERCULES foam pads, many tests were done on instruments finished with various lacquers, particularly including nitro-cellulose. These experiences included subjecting the instruments on the stand to heat, cold and normal temperatures for periods of up to six months. All of the tests conducted by the factory showed that the foam was non-reactive to the various finishes that we experimented with.However, it is also true that there is not just one formula of each type of lacquer. Each manufacturer and supplier has their own variation, which mixes different proportions of the chemicals involved. There are literally thousands of different variations of lacquer in use today, making it impossible to test them all. We must also not forget vintage instruments which could be several decades old.As a result, while HERCULES can say that the extensive testing shows the foam should be acceptable for these finishes, we cannot offer an absolute guarantee.If you are concerned about the possible reaction of your instrument with the foam, one option for you would be to wrap the foam in a natural cloth (such as cotton) to avoid direct contact with the instrument. In any event we do recommend that you to refer to the instrument manufacturer's owner's manual for information regarding the recommended storage procedure and the do’s and don’ts of caring for your particular instrument. I hope this provides the information you require. Thanks for your email and interest in HERCULES stands. Like Michael I have used stands for years with no problems on new and very old guitars and basses. However, if a particular instrument is unlikely to be used for over a week, back in its case it goes.
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Post by jean on Feb 2, 2016 17:46:35 GMT
Maybe it's coincidence but here in the Netherlands there is a NRP estrallita for sale(been eyeing it for a couple of weeks), with exactly the same problem on different places on the body. So it might be a common problem. The estrallita is a good price, but the laquer problem puts me off.
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Post by jimbogubson on Feb 10, 2016 15:46:17 GMT
Hi folks, just heard back from national and they have said they will refinish the guitar again and cover the return cost if I i send it out to them. Although I like the suggestions of having it refinished over here with some proper solvent based laquer, I think that sending it back to national will probably be the cheapest option and least likely to affect the value of my guitar. What say you good people!
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Post by Pickers Ditch on Feb 10, 2016 17:05:09 GMT
You could be a bit cheeky and ask National if they would contribute what they would pay for return shipping to California towards you having the guitar refinished with proper solvent based lacquer here in the UK. That way you get what you want, under your control, and they save their cost of labour and materials. Win / Win scenario if both sides are agreeable IMHO. With regards to future value of your guitar, I think it may enhance it as this is a known problem in the market place and people would be wary of the potential paint problem even if it has been rectified by the original supplier(s).
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Post by jimbogubson on Feb 10, 2016 18:00:10 GMT
You could be a bit cheeky and ask National if they would contribute what they would pay for return shipping to California towards you having the guitar refinished with proper solvent based lacquer here in the UK. That way you get what you want, under your control, and they save their cost of labour and materials. Win / Win scenario if both sides are agreeable IMHO. With regards to future value of your guitar, I think it may enhance it as this is a known problem in the market place and people would be wary of the potential paint problem even if it has been rectified by the original supplier(s). I like your thinking! I might try that approach first and see what they say. Any thoughts on a gun stock oil finish?
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Post by Pickers Ditch on Feb 10, 2016 18:12:05 GMT
The gun stock oil finish has a lot going for it in as much that if anything comes through from the wood in the future it can be rectified in small localized areas. However, preparation is key (pun intended) and would have to be perfect because any residual original base coat on / just in the the surface of the wood may prevent penetration of the oil leaving you with a patchy finish overall. I've had teak oil and linseed oil finished basses in the past that were good and showed off the grain a treat but it was the original finish from new.
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Post by jimbogubson on Feb 10, 2016 18:40:02 GMT
The gun stock oil finish has a lot going for it in as much that if anything comes through from the wood in the future it can be rectified in small localized areas. However, preparation is key (pun intended) and would have to be perfect because any residual original base coat on / just in the the surface of the wood may prevent penetration of the oil leaving you with a patchy finish overall. I've had teak oil and linseed oil finished basses in the past that were good and showed off the grain a treat but it was the original finish from new. Yep, that makes perfect sense pickers ditch. Muchas rubbing down!
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