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Post by kristo on Sept 11, 2015 8:24:24 GMT
I had a festival gig last weekend where I used my MM Blues 28. The guitar has been set up recently and plays great, but upon getting it out of it's case this week there was a terrible rattle when it's strummed. Through a bit of checking it appears that the cone has moved during transport, and now the saddle is touching the cover plate. Is it usual for cones to slip? I did have the guitar in it's pod case and transported it backpack style, so maybe this isn't the best way to carry it. It's strung with Newtone Masterclass nickel 12-54s and tuned standard. Just wondering if this is usual or if there's anything I can do to prevent this in the future? Cheers.
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Post by Michael Messer on Sept 11, 2015 8:37:22 GMT
Hi Kristo,
I am not quite clear about when this happened. Had the cone moved while the guitar was in transit with slackened strings?
It is nothing serious, but to help you I need to understand how it happened.
Shine On
Michael
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Post by kristo on Sept 11, 2015 8:42:28 GMT
Hello Michael,
Thanks for the reply. The festival was local so we drove. It was fine for the gig, I didn't slacken the strings just put it straight in it's case and on my back. Walked to the car, and put it in there. We then drove home a few hours later. Didn't get it out of it's case until 2 days later, when it sounded weird. Cheers.
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Post by gaucho on Sept 11, 2015 16:55:06 GMT
I'm sure Michael will reply with better info, but it seems weird that the saddle is touching the coverplate? You mean the saddle is touching the hand strap or the biscuit is touching the coverplate? If it is the saddle touching the hand strap on the coverplate, it could be that the cover got bumped and bent downward, but that seems unlikely. Is the action still the same at the 12 fret. 1st thing I'd try is de tuning it and then bringing it back up to pitch. The cone would be hard to move if it had string tension on it, especially standard tuning pressure!
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Post by Michael Messer on Sept 11, 2015 17:13:01 GMT
Hi Kristo,
It is very unusual for this to happen. Rather strangely, I have never had any problems in this area with MM guitars or any guitars, but last week somebody else asked me about a similar problem. I don't think there is a fault running through them, just a coincidence. The other was a different model.
I agree with all that Gaucho has said. I don't think it has anything to do with how you transported the guitar. I would slacken the strings enough to be able to move the cone and then push the bridge saddle clear of the coverplate and tune it up again. See what happens from there.
I am interested to know if the setup you mentioned was done by us, or has it been done since you owned the guitar? I am not asking so I can throw the blame at somebody, I am just trying to get to the reason this happened.
Shine On
Michael
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2015 17:46:58 GMT
Photos could solve this mystery...
TT
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Post by kristo on Sept 11, 2015 18:06:00 GMT
Thanks for the replies.
The biscuit is touching the cover plate towards the tailpiece of the guitar. It was fairly close after being set up to get the intonation just right, but it seems to have moved to right against it.
It wasn't the original setup, I have replaced the cone with a National one and had the action lowered to aid chording.
I'm away for the weekend but can try and get some pictures up Monday.
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Post by mikenewport on Sept 11, 2015 20:27:47 GMT
Hi kristo,
I have a MM Blues 28 but have not come across this problem. May I suggest some possible reasons
1) the strings you are using "Newtone Masterclass nickel 12-54s" have a slightly lower tension compared to other nickel 12-54's, with nickels having lower tension than phosphor bronze for example. Perhaps they are too light to physically hold the cone during the movement of walking and gravity.
2) In standard tuning do you play strummed chords with a pick? If the points in 1) above are valid, you might have moved the cone with too much of a strum.
3) Fairly light strings, lower action and strummed - I don't believe there's enough pressure on the cone to fix it's position, despite being in standard tuning
All the best
Mike
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Post by Michael Messer on Sept 11, 2015 21:20:09 GMT
Hi Kristo,
I wish you had told us the full story in your first post.
Firstly, the comments that Mike has made are pretty much on the money.
There are now many factors that have been put into this; a new cone and biscuit, a lower string-height, setup and light strings. First of all, I have no idea who did this work and with all due respect to whoever did it, unless the luthier was one of a handful of luthiers in this country that understand resonator guitars, the setup is where the problem lies.
I do not recommend fitting National cones in MM guitars, not because I am being precious or jealous of their product, but because my Continental cones are extremely good. While there are differences in the tone of each cone, the National fitted in an MM guitar is not an upgrade that makes enough difference to justify the cost. To make a real improvement I recommend fitting a National biscuit/bridge onto a Continental cone and having a setup by an expert resonator luthier. The high quality maple biscuit really improves the tone and setup is so important in these guitars. I think that the lower string height is too low and that there is not enough, or any, break angle from the bridge to the tailpiece. If this is the case, the only way to have a low string height and put enough pressure on the cone, is to have the neck reset. In other words.... tip the neck back to get some pressure on the cone and create a break angle from the bridge saddle to the tailpiece. You might not have noticed any problems while playing at home, but out at a gig and playing with more power, there is not enough pressure on the cone and it has shifted back to where it feels most comfortable.
The light strings should not be causing any problems. Many people use light strings on resonator guitars, but to do so the geometry has to be correct.
If the work on your guitar was done by an expert resonator luthier, then something else, possibly the cone, is causing the problem.
This is all guesswork, it is impossible to advise you without having the guitar in front of me, but I think I'm on the right track.
If it were my guitar I would raise the bridge saddle a couple of millimetres and I think it would be fine.
Shine On
Michael
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Post by kristo on Sept 13, 2015 19:10:11 GMT
Thanks for the replies. I wondered if the low action and string selection were responsible, and it looks like it's the case. I was playing particularly hard that night so I think that's contributed too.
I'll go with getting the action raised a little to help things. I appreciate the assistance. Cheers.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2015 19:52:38 GMT
Had a quick look for the dimensions of national V continental cones - couldn't readily find any.
It may be that the national cone is a little smaller, and if so could move more in the well than a continental, especially if the action is low and has light strings - not a great amount of pressure holding it in place.
It should be a quick fix - slacken the strings, and move the whole thing forward a bit 'til the biscuit is not touching.
But if the continental is a bit bigger, maybe swap it back and it won't happen again.
BTW, I've got a 9.5" biscuit cone in my OMI dobro - it should have a 10.5" biscuit cone really (I've got one but it doesn't sound as good as the 9.5"). There's way too much space for it, and the rim sits on about 3mm of ledge. I dropped it in the case once and it half fell through the hole.
So I'm much more careful now...
TT
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Post by kristo on Sept 17, 2015 17:54:06 GMT
Some pictures of the break angle, for reference.   |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2015 18:08:05 GMT
You've got something thick propping up the tailpeice by the looks of it. There's a good chance taking that out will help the break angle. Maybe just a thin strip of leather if you have to.
TT
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Post by kristo on Sept 17, 2015 18:42:34 GMT
Yeah, I've thought about removing that. Is it necessary to have something there? I guess the metal on metal rattles....
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Post by Michael Messer on Sept 17, 2015 19:08:50 GMT
Kristo, take that piece of cork, or whatever it is, out and see how the break angle is. You don't need much, but you do need some break angle. Metal against metal should not rattle. I don't know who put that there, but it is not necessary. Also....whoever did put it there may have slightly reshaped that front edge of the tailpiece. I think it needs bending down slightly so the front edge sits nice and firm on the coverplate, but so the string ball-ends are not stopping that from happening.
Shine On
Michael
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