Tricone weights

[lexluthier]

Hi to all!

I would be really grateful to anyone who could give me answers to the following questions:-

I understand from reading a few threads on his forum that NRP changed the gauge of the materials they used to make their resonator bodies some years back. Can anyone tell me what year this happened and what a tricone weighed before that?(They are advertised to be 9lbs 8ozs currently)

Could someone tell me the weight of Busker tricone and/or the weight of an original National tricone(round necks) Can't find this info anywhere!

Trying to make a decision on which tricone I want to buy next. I've ruled out cheaper Asian made models as even after total strip downs and rebuilds, making them louder, bassier, brighter and just more resonant, not one of them has sounded as good as my Continental, despite it looking like a car crash. Everyone I've played them to agrees, to a man(or woman) The Continental, though not as loud or bright or even having the same amount reverb, receives descriptions like 'sweeter' and 'more liquid'. Easily the most addictive guitar I've ever had in my hands, I lose time and have to actually make myself put it down. The others, my ears have had enough after an hour or so.

The main difference to my mind is the gauge of the body material. The Recording kings, Johnsons, Regals  and the like, measure to about 28 thousands of an inch and weigh in at around the same as the NRP's, 9lb, 8ozs(or more!) My Continental measures at 24 thou' making the weight come in at 8lbs 4ozs.

The MM blues I worked on recently had a very thin body gauge(no nickel plating under the paint) and has a killer tone compared with other modestly priced single cones I've had or worked on. Apart from the basic geometry of certain aspects of this guitar being right, it was (comparatively) light as a feather and again, addictive to play.

Saving my pennies and thinking about an NRP, but the weight of them and therefore the tone is praying on my mind. Perhaps I've already fallen for the 'old tone' and the big, bold new tone's not for me, unfortunately can't travel much to find out for myself. All help and comments appreciated.

[mikenewport]

Hi Lexluthier, I have a busker tricone in front of me and a micrometer, where would you take the measurements from? ps I'm not taking it apart! ha ha

Mike

[lexluthier]

Hi Mike! Its hard to get a Micrometer in anywhere on a Tricone but the bridge cover(hand rest) is usually made of the same material as the body and is accessible there. Sorry to keep you waiting, Charly Patton distracting me! Cheers mate.

[lexluthier]

Mike(and anyone), you can also get a micrometer in the top middle hole on the right hand grill if you open the mic up enough to slide it in first. Re-measured mine again last night just to be sure, 0.0024 on the hand rest, 0.0025 on the grill, the nickel plating can bring variables to the body thickness, and some times excess weight(check out Mike Lewis's excellent 'Fine Resophonic' video).

At the risk of being annoying and teaching Granny to suck eggs, the best way to weigh your guitar if you don't have a small device is to weigh yourself on bathroom scales first, and then again holding the instrument. Modern digital kitchen scale are pretty good providing you can balance the guitar on them. Cheers all

[Michael Messer]

Hi lexluthier,

As far as I remember it, NRP changed the gauges of metal used for their guitars in 2008.

There is no point in weighing a modern resonator guitar and comparing it to an old National or Dobro guitar, because as well as what Mike Lewis says about variations due to plating and stamping, they now all have truss rods which add to the weight.

Certainly, the lighter feeling bodies on most metal bodied resonator guitars are the best. But, there is a lot more to it than just the gauge of metal used. There is the type of metal used, on a Tricone that can be brass, steel or German Silver. There are also the dimensions, type of metal and metal gauge that is used to make the soundwell (or pan). The neck material, how well the neck is fitted to the body, soundposts, T-bridge, coverplate material, cones, and last and very much not least.... the final setup of the guitar. These are just some of the factors that go into making a Tricone.

I have always found that when it come to original 1920s and 30s round neck Tricones, that very few of them are really great guitars. But when you do find one that is a goodie, it is more than a great guitar, it is unbelievably wonderful! Square neck Tricones were more consistent and I have found that most of them sound pretty good. Of all the Tricones I have seen, played and owned in the past 35 years, I could count on one hand the ones that I consider to be 'unbelievably wonderful'. I have seen some that have all the right ingredients, but for some reason they don't sound great and nothing can be done to make them sound great. Tricones...... they are temperamental beasts!

Shine On
Michael.

[lexluthier]

Hi Michael. Thank you for your response.

I was only interested in the weight of an old national tricone out of curiosity as I'm highly unlikely to get my hands on one and they are a kind of benchmark in my(and maybe others)mind. I am more keen to find the comparative weights of more contemporary guitars.

Even with the limited exposure I've had to resonators I have to say I do agree with and/or understand all the comments you made about the factors that contribute to the tone/volume of a tricone. As I read somewhere(probably here) Q. What's the most important aspect in creating a great resonator tone? A. Everything!

I'm really not trying to over simplify the equation, just trying to gather some knowledge I don't have and can't find, to add to that part of the equation for myself. Members of this forum and folk elsewhere have commented on the difference in tone of, for example, NRP's when the body gauge changed and I'm just trying to get my head around these perceptions, even if it has to be in a vicarious fashion.

Do resonators have to be as heavy as many are in the modern era? I'm suspecting not but trying to learn. I can't help but think that even an original National with a truss rod fitted wouldn't weigh as much as a modern guitar but don't know until someone kindly indulges me.

One thing I do know for sure is that 1lb+ in weight makes a huge difference in just handling and playing a guitar, let alone the tone.

Due to dependants I can neither travel far or for long, not ideal I realise but there we are. Currently have my beloved Les Paul standard and many other guitars and bits of equipment for sale to fund buying a 2nd and hopefully great tricone. Trying hard to be as informed as possible and make this one time only decision, the right one.

Hopefully its an interesting conversation too.

Any kind of date for a MM tricone yet Michael?(and is there really a waiting list already?)

Yours, hopefully not too Aspergically, Chris.

[mikenewport]

Hello Lexluthier,

Well I've tried but can't seem to get a measurement anywhere. On the handrest/ cober there is sort of a rolled edge and the micrometer I have just wont go i anywhere like a caliper for example. I think the Busker Deco is brass body with a steel well and cover plate.
I will say that The deco weighs in fairly heavily but add MY EXPERIENCE IS MINIMAL OF PLAYING OTHER RESONATORS.

I started a thread recently (http://michaelmesser.proboards.com/thread/7805/ageing-resonators) asking how resonators age. To be honest the great replies led me to believe that there is a million and one variables in the ageing process. Michael's post above reiterates this. I used to think that resonators sounded, well like resonators, more or less all the same. I now have three, but each is as different as chalk and cheese.

Good luck with your project and it would be nice to know your conclusions. By the way how are you going to be objective about this?

"Currently have my beloved Les Paul standard and many other guitars and bits of equipment for sale to fund buying a 2nd and hopefully great tricone. Trying hard to be as informed as possible and make this one time only decision, the right one."

...surely the best part of buying the best ever is the falling i love bit?

Best of luck

Mike

[Michael Messer]

Hi Lex/Chris,

You are right that some of the resonator guitars built in the past 15 to 20 years are way too heavy. The Ozark 3515B is one that springs to mind. I reviewed it ten years ago and my back is still suffering from lifting it out of its case!

It was in fact the existence of so many overweight-overbuilt-unplayable resonator guitars in the marketplace that led me to start my own brand.

My own brand Tricone is still in the design stages, so no street date yet, but hopefully later this year. It takes time to build to my design and send me a prototype. Then it takes a couple more months for the adjustments and a new prototype to be shipped over. It is not the quickest of processes, but I will not release an instrument with my name on it that I don't believe is the best available within its price range.

Keep asking your questions, me and other forum members are always happy to talk about this stuff.

Shine On
Michael.

[Mark Makin]

Hi Lex
I've just attempted to weigh my 1928 roundneck triplate - as near as I can estimate, it is exactly 7lbs.
Your question takes me back to the early 90s when I was invited to the launch party (with MM as well)for the arrival of the first NRP Triplates (Slide and Picket in Worcester). I remember seeing it leaning against a wall (nickel plated steel body)As I picked it up, for a moment I thought it was a trick. It felt like it was bolted to the floor - such was the momentary surprise at the great increase in weight. All my previous experience was with 1920s Nationals!
Best
Mark

[lexluthier]

Mike, Hi! Thanks for trying, sounds like you have a vernier caliper type of mic(digital?) flat surfaces only, I'm using the traditional engineers G shaped one. No worries, the gauge would be interesting to know, the weight would be better.

Being objective, yes, tricky! Be as informed as possible, read everything I possibly can(obsessive personality helps with that), listen to what everyone has to say, listen to every recording I can and hopeful come to a decision. Hopefully then I can find a retailer who has what I decide I might want and then hopefully I can wangle the time to pay them a visit and then hopefully fall in love and buy it, hopefully! Otherwise I'm going to have to do what most people do who buy a busker or a MM or even NRP's, go by reputation and order one on line without trying it first and hope the semi-arranged marriage goes well!  Seriously, I wonder how many guitars are bought these days without the buyer ever getting to try it first.

Michael, Hi! Yeah, I really get all the time frame thing and the need to get it right, I was just looking for a bone to be thrown that might improve my patience and help narrow down the range of my potential targets. My problem anyway, damned GAS attack!

Mark, Hi! Wow, 7lbs, that's amazing, thought my 8lbs 4oz was light! Have always wondered if modern reso's were made so robust to preclude failure under tension. All the old national tricones I've seen in pictures have looked really well stamped, very flat and even looking compared with modern stuff which can be a little rippled. I would bet the old ones were stamped out at much higher pressure than the new ones.  Big machinery was much more common back then and instead of a modern dedicated machine that exerts just enough pressure to do the job, the old machines would have really banged them out and added a higher degree of 'work hardening'. Flatter is also stronger.

Contrary to that, have you every seen the tops of old tricones buckle due to string tension?  There's a degree of it happened to my Continental because the idiot who owned it previously wrecked the tailpiece trying fit an end pin jacksocket. I've arrested the 'creep' this caused but need to disassemble it and let it spend some time in a special jig I'm building to reverse it, just can't bear not have a working Tricone in my life so putting it off until I get another!

Regards to all, Chris.

[Mark Makin]

Hi Chris
Are you aware that the metal bashing for these early Nationals was done by Adolph Rickenbacher who ran a business stamping car body panels. All of the early Duolians etc benefit from the strength and stability created by a deep draw press which allowed the top and sides to be stamped in one piece with only the back soldered on.

Very few, if any at the moment, Chinese factories or hand luthiers have access to deep draw presses in body manufacture. If this were to change, I think a lot of the quality issues would change too.

[Michael Messer]

Shanghai General Motors are not far from our factory in the Pudong district. Maybe they can stamp out my new Tricone bodies on the end of a run of Cadillac wings

Shine On
Michael

[petej]

my Regal made tricone about 7 years old that was rebuilt with a new chunky neck is exactly 8lbs and my 31 Duolian (which i found out when i had a new fret board has a truss rod installed),is six and a half lbs which i think is extremely light considering it has a truss rod,
petej

[blueshome]

Perhaps I'm missing something, but surely the important factor in all of this is not the weight but the SOUND. If it's the sound you like does it matter whether it's 7 or 10lb?

[petej]

iff its the sound that you like then yes you are right it does not matter what weight the guitar is,maybe having the right set up is more important,but i think the weight does have an effect on the sound like a lot of other factors do,i would think that Michael would be better qualified than myself to explain the differences in weight would affect how the guitar sounds,what is interesting to me is that you can get 10 Duolians or Tricones all made exactly the same but all sound different to each other,then out of that bunch might be one or two that sound special!
petej