Paper/Card Gaskets under all 3 Tricone cones

[snakehips]

Hi there !

Anyone with a vintage National Tricone got or needed to put gaskets under their cones ?

My recent 1931 roundneck Tricone has them and I'm not convinced it is helping the sound.
Could they have been placed, purely to raise the cones, bridge and saddle for a higher action ?

Surely a higher saddle would be a better solution ?

Any views on gaskets under the cones inside a Tricone would be most welcome, thanks ?

[Michael Messer]

Hi Snakehips,

It is really all down to personal taste. If the gaskets are in there and it sounds wonderful, don't touch anything. However, if the gaskets are in there and you don't like the sound, take them out.

Generally speaking, although National did fit a lot of Triplates with gaskets, I find they work better in single cone guitars, as they take too many of the inherent Triplate overtones and highs away. As I say, that is a generalisation.

Tastes have changed in 83 years since that guitar was built and I think that dull sweet Triplate tone was something they liked in the 30s. Another consideration for gaskets in Triplates, is that they pretty much put a stop to another inherent characteristic of these guitars - buzzes and rattles. It was more likely to be for tone, but nobody really knows because there is no factory documentation on this subject.

I don't believe they were fitted to adjust the set up.

Shine On
Michael

[snakehips]

Thanks Michael.

This is a modern applied gasket though - see pic :

[Michael Messer]

Those look very new. I would definitely try it without them.

Shine On
Michael

[snakehips]

Hi again !

The tone improved a bit when i put in a set of NRP hot-rod cones BUT there still seems to be a "hole in the sound" !
I don't really know how to explain what I am hearing !!

The action is fairly low for my preferences - making it a bit difficult getting a clean tone out of the 1st string with a slide, on the low frets.
Could be the nut nut needing replaced though BUT if I remove the gasket, I'd think the action will be a tiny bit lower.

I'm not convinced the saddle is original inhe T-bar, so. I might replace that with something a bit higher.

[Michael Messer]

It sounds to me like the whole thing needs a proper setup. I would never replace vintage cones for Hot Rods unless I really have to. These guitars are very old and require gentle and careful treatment. I know you have a few old Nationals, but 20s & 30s Triplates, especially round neck ones, are not easy to set up to optimise their performance.

Really great round neck Triplates (I am talking about old ones) as musical instruments, are in my opinion, few and far between. I have owned a few and I have played hundreds, and I can count on no more than two hands the really great sounding Triplates to die for that I have seen.

Shine On
Michael

[snakehips]

Hi Michael,

As stated i think, I was only putting the NRP hot rod cones in, on a temporary basis, AND with the gaskets still in place, to compare the sound of those original cones - to suss if perhaps the original cones were just not very good.

I'm going to remove the gaskets.
Perhaps I'll send it for some TLC.

[Michael Messer]

Hi Snakehips,

I am sure it will sound better without those gaskets. A visit to Newbury might be helpful too.

Shine On
Michael.

[Colin McCubbin]

Aug 25, 2014 17:45:48 GMT Michael Messer said:

A visit to Newbury might be helpful too.

Shine On
Michael.

Newbury...? That's my childhood stomping ground! I vividly recall the live music in the Corn Exchange. ;-) I took my driving test there on market day, aged 17, there was a traffic jam in the main street caused by the market and I sat in the jam for 30 mins of my test... Passed!

What is in Newbury that Snakehips might visit I wonder? And, Snakehips did that tricone come from Marc? I'll probably get shot down, but if bottleneck is your intent, then you could try fitting a 2nd string as the 1st string, that is what most of the Hawaiian style sq neck players did to get the string/bar tension in the first string.. Might work on a round neck to get you 'up and off' the frets.

Aloha

Colin

[snakehips]

Hi Colin,

Yes, the guitar was one Marc worked on, back in February of this year, from the date he put on the neck stick. I've only just got the guitar though.
I've just realised, I think I do have his email address. I'll ask him more on the WHY a gasket.

In the meantime, I asked Steve Evans (Beltona guy, folks !) - and he said that gaskets are often used if the cones have been sagging, so that a more inside part of the cone has sagged enough to touch the raised-up lip at the inside edge of the well holes, losing sustain. The gasket would only sit under the very rim of the cone, raising up the cone a bit more, providing relief from the sagging parts contacting anything they shouldn't.

These cones on my guitar look pristine though.
There are a few tooling marks just in from the rim that could be signs of someone pushing the shape back to where it should be, but to be honest, the cones look too perfect in shape for that to be likely.
AND, as they are, they are no where near looking like they are sagging, even under full string pressure.

I prefer 13-56 strings - as I also play regular fingerstyle, with string bending, so don't want to go up in guage size.

[snakehips]

Hi again !

Update !

To re-cap, my "new" 1931 roundneck Tricone didn't sound anywhere near as good as it should. The action was also fairly low.
It's had a neck reset and all parts are original, as far as I can tell, except there has been card gaskets placed under the cones, and perhaps the saddle in the T-bar may have been replaced.

I replaced the original cones with modern NRP hot-rod cones - and that improved things a fair bit but there is still a hole in the sound and I felt the volume should be better.
The string height at the 12th fret was (space beteen the top of the fret and underside of string) : 2mm on the 6th string, and 1.75mm on all the other strings.
Too low for me.

So, the last few days I have worked on the guitar.

1. I got some boxwood strips from. Steve Evans of Beltona guitars (now back in England) - and spent well over an hour carefully making a new taller saddle with it to fit the slot in the T-bar. Next night I cut the slots for the strings, very carefully. New string action at the 12th fret about 3mm on all the strings, apart from the1st and 2nd strings which were a little higher.
Wow ! What a difference in volume - much better.
However, there was still this "hole" in the sound

2. I removed the card gaskets from under the cones. I could see that the well was not flat - especially under the treble side cone - without any string pressure on the cones, The treble-side cone was not contacting the well all the way around - big gaps, in fact.
However, with the strings put on, back to full standard E tuning, the cones all sat flush to the well/pan.
I think the gaskets have been used to try and flatten things out - but I don't think it is necessary - at least on the new cones, perhaps not for the vintage cones.
Strung everything back and the action was lower but still a tad higher than what the guitar was like before I started tinkering on it.
It's about 2mm on the 6th-3rd string (at th 12th fret) , and up to just over 2.5mm on the 1st string.

Without the card gaskets, and a taller bridge saddle, and new cones, the guitar has come live again, no "holes" in the sound.
It now sounds close to what it should sound like.
I think I'm going to have to do another saddle though, as removing the gaskets brought the action down a bit too far for my liking.

So, in conclusion, I am 100% sure I did the right thing removing the gaskets, as that has made this single most improvement in the guitar's volume, and especially it's tone - it has a really full fat tone now, much louder. The bass notes are really punchy and fat now, more so than on my NRP german silver Tricone, and nearly as loud as the NRP one now.

[robbie]

good on yah snakie...always pleasing when work input is matcheded by improved proformance...( in my case that rarley happens )


regards

[amccj7]

Quoting Snakehips...I removed the card gaskets from under the cones. I could see that the well was not flat - especially under the treble side cone - without any string pressure on the cones, The treble-side cone was not contacting the well all the way around - big gaps, in fact.

This is my personal opinion that these practices,
along with felt and glued cones in wooden Dobro,s is to cure buzzes,rattles.
And any tonal change is secondary.

[snakehips]

Hi again ?

"Any tonal changes is secondary ?"

Not when it drastically hurts the tone and volume it isn't !

And anyway, there wasn't any rattles or buzzing from the guitar before or after.

[rickS]

Hi Snakehips, couple of thoughts - IMO its worth trying a maple saddle as well as a boxwood one - I found maple sounds much richer on my '31 tri; also, it will likely take a fair while ( as I'm sure you know ) for the sound to ripen to full bloom - mine carried on developing for months if not years - enjoy!