zappa v beefheart (bowie v iggy)

[Deleted]

To avoid cluttering a separate decent thread, I thought I'd put this up in case it has any legs (Denny Whalley did slide with zappa and beefheart, but not certain whether bowie / iggy did any).
So first up, zappa is a genius. Is beefheart?
TT

[zak71]

I really enjoy reading Zappa in print (the man gives a great interview) but can't stomach listening to his music.
Good lyrics - sometimes brilliant - over insufferably cerebral wanking.

I like listening to Beefheart but the word "genius" gets tossed around pretty liberally these days.
Beefheart did less cringe-worthy Howlin' Wolf covers than most of his contemporaries who made entire careers out of castrating this type of material:

[bod]

Hi TT,

As one of those cluttering the other thread with asides, I thought I'd pop by and have a few words in this one.

I'm not really sure what to say - or even quite what I think - about genius. I was taking my orientation from what I happen to enjoy: I'm tempted to say 'I don't know much about genius, but I know what I like'...

Beefheart's Safe as Milk is one of my very favourite albums; I just love it. Among other things, it has, IMO, some very nice slide work (thanks to Mr Cooder, I believe). While I've not heard a lot of Zappa, I can honestly say I've never really enjoyed any that I have heard. Of course, that is no criticism of Zappa and I really won't be surprised if I do hear some I enjoy very much one day - music is like that in my experience. Anyway, I was kind of pulling your leg, because your phrase 'like Beefheart compared to Zappa' clearly didn't mean to me what it meant to you. But it also so happens that I've been intending to get on with making a CBG. I have all the bits and started working on them a couple of weeks back but lost my momentum. Funnily enough, you saying that CBGs are more like Beefheart than Zappa turned my mind back to it in a fun way - with the result that I really did get on back on track with my tinkering this afternoon.

I had no idea that the stakes revolved around 'genius'.

Is Zappa a genius? A lot of people seem to think so and I have no reason to doubt it.

Is Beefheart a genius? A lot of people seem to think so and I have no reason to doubt it.

I didn't get into the Bowie and Iggy comparison, maybe because I enjoy them both about the same (Iggy with the Stooges, that is, and Bowie with Mick Ronson... )

Hope that made some sort of sense. I'll be interested to see if the topic has legs and, if so, where it goes.

[Deleted]

Hi zak / bod at al.
To be honest, I have no problem with beefheart and the beefheart I hear with zappa has grown on me fully. The bits that irritated me (e.g. the whelps at the end of a word) don't bother me now. The poetic expression is very clever and his solo stuff is also growing on me. But trout mask replica had always put me off him...
The zappa thing... When I was a teen, someone 'forced' me to inhale some wacky baccy and listen to zappa (I previously was only listening to blues), and the effect was so profound I gave up playing guitar for a year, and stopped listening to blues too (until about 5 years ago).
Ten years ago, I decided (not entirely sure why) to buy a huge bunch of zappa CDs, and I have about 35 albums (only 65 to go). Then last november (again not entirely sure why) I decided to listen to little else but zappa for a year (only 4 months to go...).
In my head, I have this daft notion that listening to zappa might make me a better blues player - go figure!
TT

[Deleted]

zappa / beefheart - advance romance, from bongo fury.
(with denny whalley, george duke, napoleon murphy-brock, and terry bozzio - amongst others).
TT

[Deleted]

Contentious lyrics maybe, and caliuta's 80's drumming - but denny whalley on slide again.
TT

[Deleted]

another 12 bar(ish) FZ tune - the lyrics are as 'roots' as you can get IMO...

[Deleted]

To quote long time Zappa drummer Jimmy Carl Black in a Beefheart documentary shown a few years ago-"Frank's good but Beefheart's the real thing"

[bod]

Aug 15, 2014 9:22:43 GMT @graeme said:

To quote long time Zappa drummer Jimmy Carl Black in a Beefheart documentary shown a few years ago-"Frank's good but Beefheart's the real thing"

This documentary, I think:

[Deleted]

Aug 15, 2014 9:22:43 GMT @graeme said:

To quote long time Zappa drummer Jimmy Carl Black in a Beefheart documentary shown a few years ago-"Frank's good but Beefheart's the real thing"

"Frank's good but Beefheart's the real thing, if you want to get avant garde, man" - is the full quote
TT

[Stevie]

"The Muffin Man" followed by "The Man With The Woman Head" on the afore-mentioned "Bongo Fury". Van Vliet paints images in your head with words, while Frank is just smutty in comparison. "The Torture Never Stops" anyone? Pearl Jam do a track called "Dirty Frank" albeit as a tribute? I concede that the music can be much more than just the lyrics though.
At the end of the day, they were both great in their own way, but I generally tire of Zappa's take on things, however clever or just plain good he is, while Beefheart does it for me. The first time I heard "Big Eyed Beans From Venus" I was driving on a hot sunny day and I pulled over and wound the radio up the window down...
I'm only adding to the many well constructed opinions in this thread. There is much of CB's work that does that old hair standing up on the backs of my arms thingy but I can't say that for Zappa. (Except for "Doreen" perhaps, but that's only because of a distant memory of one event in time!)

e&oe

[rickS]

Dont know about genius, but I've always thought that Clear Spot is one of the all-time great rock albums - the Captain had a playful & creative way with language & word-imagery that made him unique, for me - liked Zappa's take on things, but always thought his music didn't measure up to his intellect..

[Deleted]

Clear Spot was my fav but apparently Beefheart hated it because he wasn't in total control--that's why it didn't rate a mention on the aforementioned documentary but crap like Unconditionally Guaranteed did.

[Deleted]

Only jumping in here to cast a vote for someone I consider to be a master of the offbeat humor and a musical genius that is attempted by Zappa and beefheart, both of whom have a few listenable and creative tracks in otherwise cluttered catalogs. No doubt Zappa is a musical genius, but I can't listen for more than a few minutes to his, in my mind, soiled and sophomoric tunes. Roy Wood of the Move, eLO and Wizzard to me trumps both of them in the genre of creative disturbed genius...

[Deleted]

Agree entirely--loved him from 'Fire Brigade' onwards. Got my El Trov neck sorted by the way--without a heat press!