advice on distance between neck and strings

[rm]

Hi Everyone

I'm new to resonators, though I've always loved the music that the greats play on them! I just got hold of a tricone resonator - it's a Johnson JM-999, which I believe is similar/same as Recording King RM-999.

I realise that having a high action is better for slide work, but its pretty hard to actually play the strings on the 12th fret using fingers. The distance between the strings and neck on the first fret is about 2.5 mm, and 7.5mm at the 12th fret, when tuned up to regular EADGBE tuning. 

Does that seem ok, or is there something wrong? The neck is only very slightly bent, but even if I used the truss rod to straighten it, there would still be a wide gap between the 12th fret and the strings, as the bridge is quite high and doesn't appear to be easily adjustable.

Thanks

[Deleted]

That does seem rather high at the 1st and 12th fret!
Someone who knows what they are looking at needs to look at it - where are you?
TT

[rm]

Thanks Deuce. I'm in Herts.
Thinking about possible causes of the strings being far from the fretboard at 12th fret, I came up with the following:


1) The nut being too high
errrm it looks fine to me

2) The neck not being straight
Its very slightly curved - straightening it might reduce the gap by a millimetres, but wouldn't solve the problem.

3) The T-bridge being too high:
The wooden bit on top of the bridge does seem rather high, but I think its never been modified. And it's sitting properly in the 3 cones. 

4) The neck being straight, but at the wrong angle.
I don't know whether what the correct angle is, or whether it can be adjusted. Looks about right to my amateur eyes...


any other things to investigate? would photos help/

[bod]

Photos might well help

[polly]

G'day rm, I have the RK RM-999. I think Johnson changed their name to Recording King supposedly when they improved the manufacture and quality control.
I had the opposite problem with mine, that is, the action was a bit low for my slide work. The saddle is quite easy to adjust, although time consuming. I made myself a new ebony saddle. You would need to shave off some wood from the underside of the saddle, a little at a time. It could take a few attempts, re-assembly and re-stringing. You can leave off the cover plate until you're satisfied.
Before you do this though, I advise you to see what can be done with the bent neck See a luthier maybe. How old is the guitar?

[Deleted]

I would say though as you are new to resonators, you shouldn't try doing this yourself - yet.
A luthier may or may not be helpful too.
There is a forum members map - see if there's anyone near you on it, then PM them.
Or wait a bit longer and someone will offer some more advice.
TT

[zak71]

Aug 6, 2014 9:16:25 GMT rm said:

The distance between the strings and neck on the first fret is about 2.5 mm, and 7.5mm at the 12th fret, when tuned up to regular EADGBE tuning. 

That is indeed excessively high, there's really no need to have your strings that high even if you are going to play bottleneck exclusively. If you're going to fret strings, that type of setup will be painful and most likely aggravate intonation accuracy issues inherent to straight, non-adjustable bridges, as well.
That's a string height in excess of a 1/4" at the 12th fret!

I like about .06mm under the low E and .035mm under the high E at the 1st fret, and 2.3 mm under the low E and a little less than 2mm under the high E at the 12th fret.
These measurements are from the top of the fret to the underside of the string, not from the surface of the fretboard.

Aug 7, 2014 13:52:37 GMT rm said:

1) The nut being too high
errrm it looks fine to me

What do you mean "it looks fine"?
If the string height at the first fret is what you stated, then the nut is too high, regardless of how it looks.

Aug 7, 2014 13:52:37 GMT rm said:

3) The T-bridge being too high:
The wooden bit on top of the bridge does seem rather high, but I think its never been modified. And it's sitting properly in the 3 cones.

If the height of the strings at the 12th fret is what you state, then the wooden bridge insert is too high, regardless of whether or not it has been modified.
I have seen far more import Tricone copies that required extensive setup than ones that did not.
The string height at the bridge is easily adjustable by removing the wooden saddle from its slot in the middle of the aluminum t-bridge and sanding the bottom of it to the required height (the formula is that the bridge needs to go down TWICE the distance of the height reduction desired at the 12th fret).
There's only that low you can go before string-to-tailpiece angle is compromised, so be careful, or ask someone who knows what they're doing.

Aug 7, 2014 13:52:37 GMT rm said:

4) The neck being straight, but at the wrong angle.
I don't know whether what the correct angle is, or whether it can be adjusted. Looks about right to my amateur eyes...

Once again, what do you mean "it looks right"?
With a resonator guitar, there is only that much adjustment you can make at the bridge before you either run out of room under the hand rest, or get so low that the coverplate itself interferes with the strings. Outside of those parameters, a neck angle adjustment is required. The neck angle is adjusted via the height of the "post and pad" wooden supports under the neck stick (aka "mushrooms").

[polly]

rm, the neck's probably benter than you thought. 7.5mm is massive. Hopefully you'll receive the right advice. It took me weeks of tweaking to get my Recording King right, but I had a nice newie with a straight neck to work with. To be honest, I'd heard some not so good reports about Johnson Resos and was unaware when I bought the RK, that they were the same company. No more advice from me. I'm just a tinkerer. I'll watch the thread with interest. Let's see those pictures.
Goodonya.

[Dessery]

Hey rm

If you're new to resos I would definitely take to to someone that knows what they're doing. I'm no expert but it sounds to me like it is in need of a decent setup.

There are some incredibly skilled people on this forum and if your lucky and one is close by you may get some help but If your in hants your probably not too far from Dave king acoustics, if you don't mind an hour or so drive he's the best person to go and see.

Good luck
David

[pete1951]

RE: action at 1st fret. If you put a capo on the first fret and the height at the second is still 2.5 your nut maybe ok......I think you will find the action will drop . They should be about the same (unless there is something VERY wrong with your neck)
PT

[rm]

Hey guys


Thanks for the great advice and help! You've really made my day! Reading the comments, I suspect the issue is the neck being not straight, and possibly the saddle needs sanding down a tad. Here are some pictures:
Neck:

:Attachment Deleted

The distance between the strings and fretboard at the 12th fret (about 7mm) and the nut (about 1.5mm). The actual frets are about 1.2mm high. 

Attachment Deleted                             Attachment Deleted

Heres the bridge: The distance between the body of the guitar and the top of the wooden saddle is about 14mm for the high pitched E string near the camera, and about 16mm for the wound E string furthest from the camera. 

Attachment Deleted
Any advice much appreciated!

[Deleted]

The nut looks ok for now. The saddle looks a bit high, and the neck is almost OK.
First up, the truss rod needs adjusting. I'm fairly sure that rotating the alan key from the treble towards the bass strings until its reasonably tight will sort part of the problem. Once you've done that, you could take the saddle out and take 1/2mm off the bottom. If still not enough, take another 1/2 mm.
I just did similar on this average vintage guitar I just got. Its taken me a few hours to get it right.
But, if you f*** it up, I'm fully covered by caveats and indemnity insurance.
TT

[rm]

haha - thanks

[zak71]

No need for trial-and-error guesswork with the saddle height.
Calculate exactly how much you want to lower the strings at the 12th fret.
Remove EXACTLY TWICE that amount from the saddle.

[bluefolk]

Are these any good to you

www.fretnotguitarrepair.com/repair/acoustic-guitar/truss-rod.php

Im not sure but the basic principles for Neck Relief checking and setting, should be the same on a resonator.

littlebrotherblues is a good one www.littlebrotherblues.com/Gear/National-EN-Setup/index.html