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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2014 14:53:46 GMT
Despite the lack of interest in my comment re the Jurgens Frost finish, I have posted below a few photos of the tin that I hastily painted with the Frost finish a year or so ago. Was out in the shed looking for something and found I was using it as a parts dish for one of the many projects out there. It is soiled and was tosed when still wet but shows potential. The finish is quite durable at this time. |
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Post by pete1951 on Mar 24, 2014 16:25:38 GMT
I was very interested in your post, and googled it . However I can`t find a British stockist (many forum members are UK based) and there is a $500 minimum order, so for the moment its not possible to try it here.
PT
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2014 0:32:00 GMT
Not sure if you are saying the UK distributer has a 500 dollar minimum on the Jurgens...my order here in USA was around 30 bucks. I am guessing that shipping of lacquer must be done by boat... I was planning to order another pint (a Newcastle just came to mind) of the stuff and could snd you one if it is allowed...
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Post by pete1951 on Mar 25, 2014 7:13:52 GMT
I can`t find a UK shop that sells it and the $500 minimum is from Jurgens USA. It is hard to send stuff that catches fire through the post , but I`d love to try it. The Company I work for buys paint from a large shop, so I will ask them about it.
Pete T
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Post by wolvoboy on Mar 25, 2014 8:40:14 GMT
anyone know who invented the original Duco paint finish on the old vintage Nationals,there does not seem to be much info on how they started using the Duco finish and why they did, also why did the process disappear,if National were trying to make guitars cheaply why would they use a paint finish so complicated to apply instead of using normal paint finishes?
wolvoboy
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Post by oscar on Mar 25, 2014 12:46:32 GMT
There were ukuleles and guitars made by Regal, Stella (if I remember correctly)and others using the Duco paint finish too.
These companies might have copied the National design.
Or National might not have invented but only used this design as the others did too.
My english is not good enough but someone else might start a patent research and gain some new information from there.
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Post by zak71 on Mar 25, 2014 13:21:18 GMT
National didn't "invent" Duco finish. It was actually used on all kinds of things (lamps, for instance) in the late 20s/early 30s, including guitars. I've seen many "student model" all-birch Regals and Harmonys painted with the stuff.  |
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Post by wolvoboy on Mar 25, 2014 14:06:39 GMT
if so many companies used the Duco finish, i wonder why the process was lost,with a finish as beautiful as Duco you would have thought that it would it would have been preserved somewhere.
wolvoboy
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Post by pete1951 on Mar 25, 2014 14:31:16 GMT
I think Du Pont `invented` it, but as I said (on this thread?) they stopped making paints in the `80s(?) and sold there paint stuff to Dulux
PT
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Post by Ian McWee on Mar 26, 2014 10:03:14 GMT
I recall chatting with some "big-hitters" at the National In The U.K shop back in the mid-90's when the subject of duco paint finishes came up ~ at that time Don & MacGregor at N.R.P knew exactly how to formulate & apply the duco - but the chemicals necessary to do it would break every Health & Pollution law in California if it got into the atmosphere.
There were mootings back then about a spraying shop being opened just over the Mexican Border to do the work!!....
Slide On!
Ian.
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Post by Michael Messer on Mar 26, 2014 10:22:18 GMT
The best person to talk on this subject is Rik Besser. I am sure he knows the history of Duco and why it was so cheap and easy back then, but very specialist today. Maybe it is to do with health & safety....
Shine On
Michael
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Post by rbe on Mar 26, 2014 20:22:29 GMT
Some of folks out there may have heard this before. I'm sure I have posted it somewhere. Sorry if I am repeating myself.
I think we have all thought that the paint (frosted duco) was the reason that they were able to make Duolians cheaper than Triolians. But I do not believe that anymore. I have no reason to make the process I do more complicated then it needs to be. If I could open a can of paint and spray it on a body and have it look like an old Duolian, that would be great. It has just never worked that way for me. And, I don't think that is what they were doing at National was really any different when finishing a Duolian compared to a Triolian.
Just look at any 12-fret Duolian. They had at least three apparent paint applications. A base color, a burst and a clear coat. Everyone's favorite green Duolian had at least three different paint layers. How many layers are there on a Walnut Burst Triolian? Base color (tan/yellow), burst (dark brown), clear coat and maybe a primer. So, to my eyes, there might be one less step in the paint application on a Duolian compared to a Triolian. That isn't going to save them 25% of the total manufacturing cost since it is only 25% of one process. One thing to consider is, if they did any sanding between coats to smooth the finish on a Triolian. Not needing to do that on the Frosted finish would save some time and money. I'm just not sure they did a finish sanding. The other thing that comes up is, the difference in the steel used on a Triolian vs a Duolian. Money is the best reason I can think of for that. It would be easier to just inventory one kind of steel and manufacture one steel body and then apply different finishes for different models. But that wasn't what they were doing. They said they used different steel on Duolians. Maybe cheaper steel and the frosted finish helped to hide a less perfect surface. That could save money. Add to that, no binding on the fretboard. Saved more money. Ivoroid dots, ebony nuts ... there could be more that I am not thinking of, but the frosted duco was not the magic, cheap, easy solution to the cost problem. It was just another form of nitrocellulose lacquer. It was a bit of razzle-dazzle though. A cool specialty finish on their cheapest model. Makes sense to me. One more thing. My guess is, that the frosted duco material cost more. It was a specialty lacquer and was produced in lower volumes. Another point to consider is, they introduced a new lower cost model during the Depression. Maybe, to make it more affordable and help sales, they found ways to save money in the manufacturing, but they may have also reduced their margin too. Better to sell at a lower profit, then not to sell at all. They needed to survive the economic downturn.
These are some of the conclusions I have come to. The real scary thing is that I actually think about this stuff. I just don't believe that the Duolians we all love, were cheap because the finish was simple and easy.
A couple of other points. DuPont owns the Duco name and in our current world of "brand everything", no one would use that name if they weren't referring to DuPont products. I'm just not convinced that was the case in 1930. I think the word "duco" was synonymous with the word lacquer back then because DuPont Duco was the first and most available Nitro lacquer. Anyway, by the 1930's, there are plenty of lacquer manufacturers and more than one source for the "frosted duco". Through formulation, the crystal characteristics could be changed, so different lacquers could be purchased to get different effects. I do not believe for a second, that National mixed this stuff themselves.
As for Ian's comment about Don and Mac. Mac told me that they did do a couple of guitars in a frosted duco like finish. They decided not to do it again. NRP embraced environmentally friendly finishes early on. That is the reason my mid 90's Tricone has an incredibly pebbly finish on the neck. Early water-base stuff. Manufacturers have been moving away from nitro finishes. You really can't shoot them in large volumes in California, and adding naphthalene to that doesn't help. Naphthalene based mothballs are not available in California anymore, too. We did find out that they could shoot it as long as it was in very low volumes (less than a gallon a day, I think). I shot a couple of guitars in their paint booth a number of years ago. They politely told me they never wanted to do that again. It stunk the whole place up!
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Post by washboardchris on Mar 26, 2014 21:35:43 GMT
Hi, I was talkiing to an old boy (in his early 90's & still working)) who specialises in re-finishing antique furniture who told me he learnt how to spray frosted finish's when an apprentice.he did however say that he did'nt intend to start doing it again at his time of life(amazing who you run into in rural Suffolk!!!!)
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2014 21:52:15 GMT
I think we determined by trial, and by logic, that if you overspray nitro, the finishes will melt into each other, and in the case when the bottom layer is the frost, the frost will disappear. So I don't think there is a clear coat on the duolans. I am pretty sure there ia a primer or base coat.
My simple slap it on experiment with the jurgens paint convinced me that the process is quick and easy. I am sure there were some well known applcation hints and tricks understood in the day...
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Post by zak71 on Mar 26, 2014 23:44:35 GMT
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