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Post by DaveRed on Mar 28, 2011 22:43:08 GMT
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Post by Michael Messer on Mar 28, 2011 23:02:03 GMT
Hi DaveRed,
National and Dobro style guitars have been playing in tune with straight unadjustable wooden bridges for 85 years, so I see no need to look for a better system.
The bridge you have asked about has been around for a few years and in my opinion is totally unnecessary, plus, it would be a tone killer. I am sure the designer would disagree, but that is my honest opinion.
Shine On
Michael
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Post by DaveRed on Mar 28, 2011 23:20:51 GMT
Michael, Those were my feelings too. Since the bridge appears to be made of metal (probably steel) it could never really transfer the string viabrations into the cone in the same efficient way that a piece of maple can. As to the designer disagreeing - wel he would do wouldn't he  |
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Post by tark on Sept 30, 2014 13:46:55 GMT
Michael, With the greatest respect I know that your views on this subject are VERY rigid.
I can understand why you may feel that the only way to build a National style guitar is to build it exactly the way National built them but you cannot argue with the laws of physics (well you can but you would be wrong).
It is true as long as you only play slide notes on a resonator guitar that the intonation is entirely under the players control, but as soon as you play fingered notes a resonator will behave exactly like any other guitar as far as tuning accuracy is concerned. The majority of electric guitars have 6 individually adjustable saddles for a very good reason. Most modern acoustic guitars make some attempt at intonation compensation with a stepped or split saddle. National Resophonic add a compensation offset to their design scale length to improve intonation and have quite frequently carved special saddles with extra intonation compensation offsets.
As far as tone is concerned 99% of the tone of a resonator guitar is determined by the cone and by the body. Within limits you can vary the materials the bridge and saddle is made from without greatly changing the tone (my bridge design by the way does allow the end user to choose the material the saddles are made from). However the mass and material the bridge is made from has quite a large effect on sustain. I have found that the electric resonator guitars like the National Resophonic Resolectic lack sustain and are rather banjo like in sound. This is because the cone does not have the mass of air to move that you have in an acoustic resonator guitar. This lack of air mass can be compensated for by increasing the mass of the biscuit.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2014 14:02:26 GMT
the electric resonator guitars like the National Resophonic Resolectic lack sustain and are rather banjo like in sound. This lack of air mass can be compensated for by increasing the mass of the biscuit. I did quite a lot of experimenting with that (heavier) aluminium biscuit, in several resos with several different cones. I was really wanting it to improve the tone. Every time, the aluminium biscuit sounded worse than a timber biscuit. The biscuit I have in my 'national' is even lighter though. I needed one quick, so I cut one out of pine, and it sounds great. As for reso compensated bridges, just compensating the B is enough for me. Anything else is over complicating it. I could post a few tunes with me fretting quite high up - no noticeable intonation issues at all. Adjustable saddles for electrics are probably required because the strings are thinner, and more prone to go out of tune. TT |
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Post by tark on Sept 30, 2014 15:35:28 GMT
Well I don't know why a higher mass bridge did not work for you. It certainly WON'T work for most acoustic resonator guitars, it only applies to the solid body resoletric style guitars. In an acoustic resonator guitar if you add much mass to the bridge the guitar tends to get quieter, although sustain does increase. You can get some unpleasant resonances occurring.
The weight of your pine biscuit probably is not much different than a maple biscuit.
Tuning is in the ear of the listener to some extent. Electric guitars benefit from accurate intonation because it is quite normal now to play all the way up to the end of the neck. Less so on acoustic guitars. Also high gain tends to highlight any tuning problems It has nothing to do with thin strings or tendency to go out of tune. Even the very best intonated guitar with wavy frets, a compensated nut and a compensated bridge is still only intonated to equal temperament tuning (or some other tuning scheme compromise) which itself is a compromise. It is impossible to get a guitar perfectly 'in tune'.
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Post by Michael Messer on Sept 30, 2014 20:59:42 GMT
Hi Tark, Long time! ...I hope you are well. I am afraid that I still hold by everything I have said about intonation and adjustable bridges on resonator guitars. I am sorry, it is nothing personal, but I just don't see the point. John Dopyera and his gang perfected the art of building resonator guitars in the 1920s and 30s, and since then hundreds of thousands of resonator guitars have been built with straight bridges that work just fine. I am not sticking in the mud, I really don't see the point in trying to improve on something that is perfect, and when I get a great resonator guitar in my hands, everything about it is perfect. Some of the all-time greatest guitarists have recorded with resonator guitars (without a slide) and I haven't noticed any of them complaining about the intonation. How about 'Romeo & Juliet' as and example - is that out of tune? .....or all of Blind Boy Fuller's recorded works....out of tune? Resobridges and intonation aside, it is good to hear from you  Shine On Michael |
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Post by tark on Oct 3, 2014 15:48:40 GMT
Hi Michael,
I'm glad I didn't totally offend you with my comments. We'll just have to agree to disagree. Tuning is one of those weird things about the physics of this universe. What do we mean when we say in or out of tune?
Really if it sounds good it sounds good. All currently used tuning systems are a compromise. Actually now you mention it one reason I don't much like listening to the really old blues recordings is that they are often horribly out of tune!
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Post by Michael Messer on Oct 3, 2014 17:17:30 GMT
Hi Tark,
This forum was set up for us to discuss and share our knowledge of subjects that we are all very passionate about, music, slide guitar playing and guitars. So you didn't offend me and likewise, I hope I didn't not offend you. A discussion like ours is the whole point of this forum!
None of the masters of pre-war American blues made out of tune recordings in their heyday. There were a few out of tune recordings by those masters in later years, affected by age, alcohol and often both. I can think of a few pre-war blues recordings by relatively unknown artists that are out of tune in a way that make them hard to listen to, but really only a few. I do however, think that the invention and mass production of electronic guitar tuners in the late 1970s changed the whole world of playing and recording guitars and other stringed instruments forever. We all use them because they are so convenient, but they have taken away much of the character that appeared in guitar playing before they went viral. In other words....every guitarist in the world now tunes their guitars the same, and that in my opinion, is a small part of the sterilisation of a lot of modern music.
Shine On
Michael.
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Post by mitchfit on Oct 3, 2014 19:01:01 GMT
MM said:
..."every guitarist in the world now tunes their guitars the same"...
mitchfit said:
'cept Keef Richards...
but perhaps sentence #5 already addressed this.
with sentence #4 as a modifier.
before the firestorm begins, lemme grab my asbestos umbrella!
:-)
mitchfit
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Post by zak71 on Oct 3, 2014 20:07:37 GMT
one reason I don't much like listening to the really old blues recordings is that they are often horribly out of tune! Define "horribly"  Old-time fiddle playing must really hurt your ears! I'd still rather listen to these allegedly "horribly out of tune" records than 99% of what came afterwards, although in all fairness it has little to do with how accurately intonated their bridges were. None of the masters of pre-war American blues made out of tune recordings in they heyday. Since I've been listening to him all afternoon, I'd like to direct your attention to the Texan guitar player J.T. "Funny Papa Smith" (aka "The Original Howling Wolf") and his chronically out of tune high E string, the guy that's usually credited with being the fountainhead of that typical Texas playing style in the key of A that Mance Lipscomb and others mined heavily later on. Never stopped me from enjoying his recordings... Crying Sam Collins, Henry Thomas, Sylvester Weaver, and a bunch of other guys made records with some pretty questionable tuning, and once again - it never stopped me from enjoying their music. Then again in those days no one had compensated saddles, fanned frets, digital tuners, and no one changed their strings every week or two - they changed them when they broke, usually just the one that broke...I have some great concert photos of Jimmy Reed (who was at the height of his Vee Jay Records hitmaking career when the pictures were taken, wearing expensive suits, drinking up a storm, and driving around in a brand new Cadillac, so money for new strings probably wasn't a huge concern) playing a Supro Sahara with five filthy looking strings and one gleaming new D string! I may be in a poor position to accurately judge who falls into the "relatively unknown" category, though. |
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Post by Michael Messer on Oct 3, 2014 20:45:11 GMT
Hi Mitchfit, I think you may have misunderstood my point; Keith Richards tunes to either regular tuning or open G and most likely use (or his guitar tech uses) a digital tuner. So he is tuned exactly the same as everyone else who uses a digital tuner. Before the invention of tuners, he would have tuned by ear and that will have given his G tuning a slightly different sound to my G tuning.
Shine On
Michael.
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Post by mitchfit on Oct 3, 2014 23:06:48 GMT
Michael, was referring to the guitar being out of tune with itself, this above and beyond what tuning it was in. even if that tuning was the correct Hz to be an actual G or any other tuning. below from: www.micktaylor.net/why_mick_taylor_quit_the_stones.html[Mick] Taylor's self effacing and humble opinion of himself never lead him to believe that he stood as a candidate to join the mighty Rolling Stones, he merely thought they asked him to come to the studio and lay down some studio tracks. Differences in musical abilities quickly surfaced at the Hyde Park rehearsals. Taylor remarks, " I just couldn't believe how bad they sounded. Their timing was awful. They sounded like a typical bunch of guys in a garage. Playing out of tune and too loudly. I thought: How is it possible that this band can make hit records?" below from: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Stones_in_the_Park..."The Daily Telegraph's Iain Martin stated that the Stones were "under-rehearsed and quite possibly nervous, not having performed live in front of an audience in more than two years. The guitars were badly out of tune and half the songs were approached at the wrong tempo", adding that Jagger appeared to be "trying to cover up for the shortcomings of his bandmates".[28]"... please don't take this as criticism, i actually admire his playing/style/person a great deal. he was among the front line in the battle to acknowledge olde school black blues, and elevate it to the level it deserved. besides, i'm hopeless without an electronic tuner myself. [see--tin ear*] no ego driven illusion of superiority here. i'm getting outta here before the sky marshal calls this a thread-jacking... mitchfit *http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tin%20ear |
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Post by Michael Messer on Oct 3, 2014 23:12:09 GMT
Thanks Mitchfit. It was me that misunderstood your comment.
Shine On
Michael
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Post by slide496 on Oct 4, 2014 1:10:50 GMT
Interesting thread IMHO!
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