Muddy Waters: Deep Blues book

[purpleorange]

Has anyone used this book before, are the tabs any good?

It has the tabs for 'can't be satisfied' and rollin' and tumblin' in it, they are the 2 songs that I would most like to learn.

[Deleted]

hi purpleorange

I have not used the book, but to be honest I am not sure you need. Tab has it's place, but for these kind of riff based songs it's not of that much use as there are not a lot of notes to learn but they will only sound right played with groove, which will come easier learning from recordings. Yeah yeah I know that's what everyone says, but it really is the best way to do it if you can. I'll start you off by saying that I think both those songs are generally played in Open G or A.

On the other hand, I could never manage to learn from records, not from scratch anyway. So the other best way, for those of us not granted excellent ears, is to watch someone playing it. I'm not sure if these songs are covered in Michael's Learn Slide Guitar DVD? I do know that he plays I Can't Be Satisfied on his Sound Techniques DVD. If you just want a quick way into those songs and don't fancy paying for a DVD just hunt about for a nice version on youtube (I mean a nice version of the songs, not a pirated copy of Michael's DVDs, just to be clear!). Once you get part of the riff visually the rest of the song should begin to unfold. Once you have most of the notes, then you will be able to play along with recordings, assuming the video you used is in the same tuning. (This is not too hard to spot: if you've worked out that the player is hitting the fifth string a lot, the song is almost certainly in either Open G or A. Tune to G and put a capo on the second fret if you sound lower than them. If the bass is mostly played on the sixth string it's probably in D or E, just repeat the process to determine which. Obviously this is not a rule just a generalisation, as you can play the sixth string in Open G!) Even if you're in the wrong tuning this will still help your rhythm.

You want another option? Find a free tab of it. Now, some songs are highly complex multi-faceted beasts which take a great deal of time and skill to accurately tab. The two you have requested are not, because the important thing is not to learn note-for-note what Muddy played but to master the groove and play the riff so that it feels right. So all you really need is a decent idea of the central riff and then you can (actually, should) leave whatever tab you're using behind

After all that, I'm sure the tab is perfectly fine, and you would be able to learn from it. It can be nice to have a book for reference. Just don't think that you have to have it

let us know how it goes

LR

[Deleted]

Hi purpleorange.

I agree wholeheartedly with LR. I tried to pick up songs with tab for a long time, but it just didn't work for me. I'm not blessed with the ability to work out a song just from listening to it, I wish I was.
I spend quite a bit of time trawling Youtube to find people playing the songs I want to learn. I find that once I've nailed the tuning and got a visual on the fret positions, I'm away. I've been working this way since the beginning of the year and find it the best way for me. I also use www.vanderbilly.com I've got a lot from there. Check out a bloke called kenleber, he demonstrates a basic version of Rolling and Tumbling which I found very easy to pick up.

Like LR says, tab has its place, but in my experience it is invariably wrong, even in some expensive books you buy on the high street. I'm not going to spend 15 or 20 quid on a book full of something which might just lead me up the garden path when I can get a better lead for free on the internet!

Rich.

[Deleted]

totally agree, i'm trying to wean myself of tab
There's a really good version of i can't be satisfied on youtube by a french gentleman that i really like, you can pick up most of it from him


have a look and then play along

[Deleted]

course, before recorded music this is the way all folk musicians would have learned their songs. Tab is at best a flawed system of writing music anyway, the problem is made worse by the fact that it's used to write down music like blues, folk and rock that is really very difficult to write, because that is not the way it's conceived. Classical music is rather different, being a fully 'literate' music in which all pieces are intended to be put into writing

I suspect that working songs out by watching and talking to other players every possible opportunity rather than aping records or memorising tab led to natural variations that became a players 'style'. Because they couldn't quite reproduce what they were hearing, and had no written or sound recording as a reference point, no two players would play a song the same, unless one had an unusual natural gift for mimicry. The mania of accuracy among musicians only becomes possible once a piece is recorded either in sound or writing. Interesting how times change

[Stevie]

I think it boils down to how difficult the piece is.

How different we are, in complete contrast to richc, I am happiest learning by ear and more importantly, trying to play along with (keep up with!) recorded music. It's how I have always done it since I chucked in classical lessons. In this sense, the listening gives me the timing and expression and tab is all I need as a road map for those pieces that I can't figure out straight off. This comes at a price of doing it that way for close on 40 years. Of course, I cannot do that with more complicated pieces, but that is not the kind of material to play along with. I read somewhere that tab pre-dates manuscript (no surprise there- players would have been forced to learn by ear originally and no doubt being not so "literate" would have initially developed some form of writing similar to tab) To my mind, tab plus a good ear for the piece is an acceptable substitute for manuscript for the type of music that interests contributors to this forum, moreover it preserves that evolution of pieces that is healthy and would be stymied by manuscript.

After all these years, discovering the tuning is my greatest help. I find that once I learn the tuning that a player is using, things fall into place much faster and often lead to other pieces by the same artist being learned. An example would be "Rounding the Horn" by Martin Simpson (CGDGCD) for which I purchased the tab and CD. It had to be ordered from the USA at the time. I found the CD of little help but the tab together with the original recording and knowing the tuning, I was away.Once I had cracked that one, I figured out "Polly on the Shore" from memory alone. Similarly, again with Martin S, once I discovered that "Air for Maurice Ogg" was in CGCGCD, it was easy to put together, again from memory.

Thumbs up for YouTube though, I learned "Stormy Monday" from there, something I had always wanted to play but just couldn't "hear" it

Whatever works for the individual must be the best option.

[fibrebundle]

I have never used TAB. And, there was a time I could not pick up anything by ear. Then, I got down to Ear Training with a MIDI software (I know, systematic Ear Training its not supposed to be cool in blues circles!). But, I'm happy I went through basic interval, melody and Harmonic Ear Training. Cause, now I can tell what someone is playing, by ear, and quite a few times without picking up the guitar. I guess thats how MUSIC is supposed to work---independent of your instrument! Trust me, Ear Training, howsoever uncool or tedious or boring it might sound, really empowers you! It most definitely does not take anything away from your playing! Now, whenever I am listening to music while traveling and I don't have a guitar with me, I carry a pitch pipe with me. Using it, I can figure out the key the song is in, and using relative pitch, actually try and visualize where on the guitar it can be played.

[Michael Messer]

I tend to think the same as most people on this thread about learning folk music from TAB. Much better to train your ears to copy the recordings. At first this is a difficult way of doing things, but the more you do it and the more logic you apply to it, it gets easier. Ear training is a vital part of learning and is something that I believe all musicians need to do regularly.

For example; let's take the song you have asked about, I Can't Be Satisfied by Muddy Waters. The first thing I would recommend is that you focus your attention on THE recording of that song, Muddy Waters classic with the electric guitar & double bass.

First of all, listen to the recording over and over until you can recite it in your head and hopefully sing it out loud. Then focus on the guitar playing and LISTEN, really LISTEN! Muddy is playing the song in the key of G, but is he playing in standard tuning, G tuning, or E tuning with a capo? Well I think it is fairly easy to rule out the standard tuning, but both G tuning and E tuning capo on fret 3 have the same notes and can play that tune. Listening and playing along with the record should eventually give you the tuning he is using, the G tuning.

Next....Break the song down; there are essentially 3 sections > the verses, the fills between the lyric lines, and the fill between verses. The verse is the main part; watch out for the chord changes because Muddy's C chord and D chord are just one note for each chord with a run-in from the B-flat note.

Next....Look at the two fills > they are both identical except the one between the lyric lines ends on a G note (sometimes a high G note and sometimes a low G note), and the one between the verses ends on a D note (4th string open) ...implying the D chord.

I said 'essentially' 3 parts because there is a variation in the instrumental break where Muddy's C chord is slightly different to the one he uses behind his voice. That only happens once.

The guitar playing in this song is very minimalistic. There is very little going on. Just the right amount of notes to imply the melody and chord changes.

Don't forget this song is called 'I CAN'T Be Satisfied', not 'I CAN Be Satisfied', so don't forget to play the whole thing as a minor, or in the blues scale, however you want to look at it. But it is NEVER in the major scale, so watch out for that B string, especially in the first two lines of each verse. It must be flattened or 'blurred' to imply the blues scale.

This is a staple of country blues slide guitar repertoire, but is very rarely played like Muddy played it. It is a much covered and misunderstood piece of music and usually overplayed.

When you have nailed that version, start looking at other versions by Muddy Waters; I Be's Troubled on the plantation recordings (if my memory is correct in G tuning down to F or F sharp), and the wonderful recording in the 70s with Johnny Winter playing slide on a National guitar. In this recording Johnny shows that he has a total understanding of Muddy's original and uses that as the springboard for his own take on it.

While all that is going on, you need to study Muddy's vocal performances on these recordings. Each has its own little quirky differences and phrasing that make these three recordings essential listening. Be careful, many people who cover this song are too tight and 'nursery rhymish' about the phrasing and timing. Muddy's vocal is very tight, but it rolls across the guitar part in quite a loose way.

......oh I forgot to say; TAB is fine, as long as the person who wrote the TAB knows what they are doing.

Have fun!

Shine On
Michael.

[Deleted]

Now this is getting interesting, certainly for me. Its fascinating to see how other people work and the various processes they use to, essentially, reach the same point. This thread has only just begun and already I've drawn useful tips from it that I shall be exploring.

We are all different and have different skills, strengths, weaknesses etc. My Dad was a relatively well known artist (painter), absolutely tone deaf, not a musical bone in his body!
But he had an uncanny eye for detail and the skill to reproduce that detail in a painting or drawing. I count myself very fortunate that I have inherited some of that ability from him. I'm primarily a photographer but I paint and draw aswell. I've always considered myself a "visual" person.

Now, my mate "Goatman Dave" (dont ask) is a very good folk guitar player. Give him a CD, show him which tune you want to play and lock him in a room with a guitar for half an hour. After the 30 minute timer goes off, let him out and he's nailed the song you want!
"How the hell do you do that Dave!"
"Dunno, just do" is the only reply you will get.
The bloke cant draw a straight line though!

I've tried every which way to do what Dave does, but the only way I can get a handle on a tune myself, is "visually" so, three cheers for Youtube and the good people who post their stuff there.

I'm desperate enough to try anything, including the ear training that fibrebundle has highlighted. I dont give a hoot whether it considered "uncool" or not, I'll give it a shot if its going to help me.

How do I get into this thing fibrebundle?

Rich.

[Deleted]

Jul 18, 2010 1:00:21 GMT Stevie said:

I read somewhere that tab pre-dates manuscript (no surprise there- players would have been forced to learn by ear originally and no doubt being not so "literate" would have initially developed some form of writing similar to tab) To my mind, tab plus a good ear for the piece is an acceptable substitute for manuscript for the type of music that interests contributors to this forum, moreover it preserves that evolution of pieces that is healthy and would be stymied by manuscript.
[....]
Whatever works for the individual must be the best option.

I completely agree Stevie, and I think this is how tab mostly is and has been used (as we can see from what others have said about how they use it). Sheet music developed out of a sort of tab for vocals in the Middle Ages and has existed alongside tab for various instruments ever since. In fact, before the late nineteenth century, classical musicians were expected to add their own ornamentations and elaborations to written scores, which were not as detailed as they later became. Writing things down can only be helpful, whatever system one uses, so long as you treat it as the basis of an interesting performance rather than as an exact 'script' to be copied to the letter. The development of this tendency in classical music is all down to the relatively recent strengthening of the division between 'composer' and 'performer'

[Michael Messer]

The key to learning about ear training is practice. The more you do it...

From a guitarist's point of view; listen to a recording of a guitarist either solo or with a band, and first try to hear what chord shape he or she is playing out of. Is it a C shape or an E shape ..etc. Once you have that, try and get the key of the piece. It could be in the key of D, but using the C shape with a capo on fret 2.

Play with records as part of your practice. Copy the lead guitarist, try and find the bass line....etc.

Visual copying from film is fine and is similar to TAB, but make sure you are copying musicians who know their stuff. I learnt a lot from visual copying when I was learning. It wasn't from You Tube, it was from TV and going to gigs and getting as close as I could to the stage. Then rushing home to try and copy what I had seen. One example of this was in the late 70s I saw Bo Diddley every night for a week. By the end of the week I was really getting my Bo Diddley licks down!

I am still trying to master many of my favourite recordings. It takes a lifetime of exploring. I am still discovering new things about songs that I have played for 30 years. I might be listening to it, or playing it, and suddenly a light goes on and another piece of the jigsaw puzzle falls into place.

It happened to me only yesterday while listening to Bashful Brother Oswald's wonderful Dobro playing.

Shine On
Michael.

[purpleorange]

Thanks for all the replys.

I have never had much confidence in my ear and I have been scared to rely on it,so it hasn't really had the chance to develop properly. I think it is time to have some faith, jump in at the deep end and spend some time with the recordings.

TBH, I don't enjoy sitting in front of youtube or using tabs, so I think it would be much better for me if I could use my ear to learn tunes and the satisfaction of learning something by my self will be much greater.

Firebundle, the ear training software sounds interesting and it is something I would like to have a look at it, It will give me an idea how good or bad my ear is. Can you download it for free?

[blueshome]

If you pop over to weeniecampbell, John Miller has some great lessons on sorting out keys and tunings. Having experienced these1st hand from the man himself (as you can if you get to Bluesweek) I can assure you that they are a great way to help unlock some of the mysteries of the blues.

No lessons/methods/tab can substitute sitting with a guitar for hours and getting sounds into your brain in my opinion, especially with a slide, so that producing a sound becomes automatic. Then you know it when you hear it somewhere else. Every little bit of help you can get is good but no substitute for putting in the time. None of the great players, past and present, got there on "talent" alone, without hours in the practice room. We do sometimes look for instant gratification these days.

[Stevie]

Thinking about it, often I'll work through chords to a song in my head. Usually, I can get through a few and then sometimes I begin to lose it. It 's as though there is some sort of subliminal reference point in my head, pitch-wise if you will and if I get too many chords far from it, I'll mentally end up at a chord a couple of semitones away from where I should be at the end of the piece. I recall doing this for a friend at work who wanted to know the chords to "The Princess Royal". I had been playing it on my mandolin (in "A") and he wanted to accompany me on his guitar as an excuse to do something together. I wrote them all down for him off the top of my head. I was about right too, but he had difficulty matching them up to the melody. I guess I had it and he did not. Then he did it again, He wanted the chords to "Au Depart" by Robb Johnson. I wore out the track on the CD trying to figure out that one! Some come easily and some just dont! It took me years to get that descending chord sequence in "My Friend the Sun" by Family, and I'm still not really there- I have just arrived at something that kind of works. I need the tab to that one!

My capability has come as I have already stated, through years and years of playing along to radio or CDs or whatever. Much of it you can anticipate, then you get caught out. I remember Linda asking me to play "Wish You Were Here" and I could not do it solely because with the other things I'd been playing at the time, I couldn't hear the melody in my head. Once I grasped the melody again, it was a cinch (no surprise there though!) I haven't been allowed to play that one since we lost the Tigger MM.

This has really got me thinking. It has made me realise that I very rarely strum a guitar at all, it's all arpeggio'd chords interspersed with dropped in notes to suggest a melody (and to some extent, the illusion that more than one person is playing) I would not make a good teacher because the basics all seem so simple to me that I'd lack the patience. Also, I find it extremely difficult to slow something down (muscle memory) That of course means that I play everything too fast along with the eventual mistakes that seem irrelevant to me until I try to record. That's what I find so impressive in Ed Genis' playing. For all that I can do and with all those years of experience, I can't do what Ed does.


Practice Practice Practice!

[fibrebundle]

There is lots of free online and download-able ear training software. Try this:

www.iwasdoingallright.com/tools/v2_24/ear_training.aspx

There is, of course, GnuSolfege that you can download:

www.solfege.org

There are many, many more. I would actually very strongly recommend a commerical software that has helped me the MOST:

www.earmaster.com/

It is EXCELLENT, and highly configurable! Strongly recommended. Spend 15 mins everyday, and you will see a marked difference.

If you want to get into ear training systematically, do read articles on it as well. Just google 'Ear Training', and you'll get lots of advice!

Of course, this is just a supplement (though a very powerful one) to ACTUAL figuring out of songs the way Michael and others have described, on your instrument. However, if you add about 15-20 mins. of systematic ear training to your playing, you ear will really grow, and you will know what is being played without even touching your instrument.