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Post by Stevie on Jul 17, 2010 16:50:14 GMT
Hi Fibrebundle,
"......it might just give me an excuse to raise the saddle height by a millemeter or two!"
When I replaced my biscuit for a National one, The new saddle was about 3 mm too low. I was forced to find some hard rock maple and make a new one. I seriously began to wonder whether it was all worth it since I now only had half of the new biscuit / saddle arrangement left. In other words, I have a new disk of timber...
Moreover, I cannot really tell if there is any difference- my ageing hearing I suppose. On the positive side, it all went back together nicely and after two complete strip downs, I have not been troubled by the buzzes that others seem to experience. I'd say go for it but be prepared to face a little extra work than you anticipated- unless you get lucky that is.
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Post by fibrebundle on Jul 17, 2010 17:52:00 GMT
When I replaced my biscuit for a National one, The new saddle was about 3 mm too low. I was forced to find some hard rock maple and make a new one..... . OOPS! How did you go about it? Did you use the disk of the National biscuit and a different maple saddle, or the stock biscuit disk (that came with your Busker guitar) and a new maple saddle?
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Post by Stevie on Jul 18, 2010 19:52:29 GMT
Hi Fibrebundle, I have replied to your PM. No point in repeating it all here!
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Post by wolvoboy on Jul 24, 2010 15:31:53 GMT
Hi Michael Just reading this thread with interest ,earlier on in the thread you said that. (I wouldn't worry about it, your guitar is fine and the break angle is similar to many antique Nationals that play & sound wonderful.) the break angle on my Duolian is fairly shallow the saddle is quite low, the action is just right, i just watched this little film from vintage Nationals where he shows a triolian that needs a neck reset he said you can tell it needs a reset by the break angle being shallow but the action is high here,s the film on youtube
what i was wondering is, my Duolian plays fine and everthing seems ok but at what point do i say that it needs a checkup,to make sure everthing is working correctly or do i say its been fine for the last 80 years leave it alone.my view is if it aint broke dont fix it but at the end of the day i want it to be the best that it can be. your advice would be appreciated
wolvoboy
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Post by tark on Jul 28, 2010 11:14:39 GMT
From what I can tell the lack of bass on the cheaper instruments is not because of an 'incorrect' break angle but because too heavy a gauge of metal has been used to make the body. The lighter metal gauges used on National guitars allow more vibration in the body. This effectively lowers the Helmholtz resonance point of the body and provides a well balanced low end. I have several single cone guitars, one of which I built myself and they all have a very strong bass response with the exception of a cheap Supro. The Supro has a very thick heavy body and poor bass. Nothing I have tried improves the bass response.
That said it seems to me quite common for acoustic guitars in general not to have a well balanced bass response. Also with the shorter scale lengths the bottom string often produces a muddy tone when fretted higher up the neck.
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Post by fibrebundle on Jul 28, 2010 11:51:38 GMT
The bass in my Republic tricone is excellent, and I thought tricones were supposed to have less bass! I am stunned with the 'true' bass it has. On the single cone, I have swapped the biscuit bridge with the NRP one, and the bass on the single cone has definitely improved markedly. I think Republics, Busker and MM guitars all use the same metal bodies, with the same thickness, and correct me if I am wrong, but I was under the impression that their thickness was, till recently, less than that of NRP guitars. Isn't it only recently that NRP has started using thinner metal bodies? I have been looking at clips of people playing Nationals on Youtube, and I kind of think I am expecting the bass on the single cone to ring like a dreadnaught flat top, whereas it is actually supposed to be a little chunky. Looking at those clips, I think the bass on the single cone is actually perfectly fine, I just kind of expected it to sound different. But, I should say, the bass on my tricone is unreal!
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Post by blueshome on Jul 28, 2010 11:57:45 GMT
Body metal thickness certainly has an impact on the tone, but I have an NRP Style O from 1995 which is built of seriously heavy gauge brass and what it does not lack is bass and volume. Tone is not bad either.
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Post by slidenpickit on Jul 28, 2010 14:04:16 GMT
Phil,
I have a 2006 Style O pre 'hot rod cone,' do you happen to know if the spec is the same as a '97?
Cheers
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Post by fibrebundle on Aug 1, 2010 13:25:15 GMT
Update: I swapped the biscuit bridge for an NRP bridge. Result: Fantastic! Great bass, sustain, increased break angle (the height at saddle has gone up by 2 mm), and above all, fantastic tone! I highly recommend this 'mod' to everyone. Thank you, MM.
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Post by Steverb on Aug 4, 2010 23:33:20 GMT
Firebundle said "I highly recommend this 'mod' to everyone."
Is a swap for a NRP biscuit something that you would recommend as a matter of course Michael?
I'm still stunned at how great my recently-acquired Busker Delta sounds. I find it hard to imagine that a NRP biscuit could make it sound any better and I'd be loathe to tinker with something that sounds so good as it is. But if you thought that a NRP biscuit would make it sound even better them I'd consider doing it.
Steve
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Post by Steverb on Aug 9, 2010 8:37:24 GMT
Hi Michael,
Just bumping this thread on the assumption that you missed my question above due to more diverting distractions at Blues Week.
How was Blues Week by the way (he said enviously)?
Steve
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Post by Michael Messer on Aug 9, 2010 9:04:57 GMT
Hi Steverb,
All these things are personal taste, but I do think the better quality biscuit, in most instruments, improves the tone. I have done many tests with all sorts of combinations and in an MM or Busker guitar the biscuit/bridge upgrade does much more to improve the tone of the instrument than an NRP cone does. The NRP cone in my opinion is an unnecessary upgrade and does very little.
We have tried upgrading the biscuits at the factory, but so far their choice of wood has not been good enough. The NRP biscuit is only about 8 quid, so it is not too serious and it may be worth a try.
I do intend to have that quality of biscuit/bridge in all our guitars, but so far the samples have not been as good as the NRP ones.
I hope I have made some sense and answered your question?
Shine On Michael
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Post by Steverb on Aug 9, 2010 12:11:15 GMT
Thanks Michael, that's useful to know. I thnk I'll leave it alone for now, order an NRP biscuit and swap it when I next change the strings.
Steve
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Post by ken1953clark on Aug 9, 2010 13:16:33 GMT
Interesting. So where do I get an NRP biscuit from?
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Post by tark on Aug 9, 2010 13:35:06 GMT
NRP biscuits can be ordered from the National Reso Phonic web store - store.nationalguitars.com/ If you order an NRP cone they include a new biscuit. Many Chinese made guitars seem to come with rosewood biscuits (my early MM Lightning had one) and all sorts of wood scraps used for the saddle. Rosewood is quite a bit denser than maple with a pronounced resonance so you get a bit less volume a bit more sustain and quite a bright sound, particularly if the saddle is also a hard wood, than you do with an all maple biscuit and saddle. Although Michael has said that some of the early Nationals had Boxwood saddles. Boxwwod is a hard and hard wearing, dense wood that used to be used for tool handles and carpenters rules. Hard to find these days even as an old ruler because these are now collectors items. One thing to watch out for on the Chinese biscuits and even T bridges is that the saddles are frequently a very loose fit in the slot so they do not transmit the string vibrations efficiently. Loose saddles like this need to be glued in. In some cases a thicker saddle that fits the slot is needed. Usually its easier to just replace the bridge with a properly made NRP part (and there is nothing real fancy about these either!) All the wood biscuits can suffer from curling due to too much or too little humidity. This is another reason that the saddle should be glued in - the saddle slot should be cut across the grain of the biscuit so when glued in the saddle stiffens the whole assembly and tends to stop the biscuit curling. Its always a good idea to level the bottom of a biscuit before fitting by sanding it on a piece of glasspaper on a flat surface.
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