Single Cone Setup (Break Angle)

[fibrebundle]

Hi,
I've lately been wondering if my Republic Single Cone has the 'correct' break angle or not, and other setup issues. The guitar plays well, sounds good, no rattles or buzzes, has excellent sustain for a single cone, and a nice sweet tone, EXCEPT that the 6th string bass is a little underwhelming. By 'break angle', I mean the angle angle that the string segment from the tailpiece to the bridge makes with the horizontal plane (of the top surface of the biscuit). What is a 'good' break angle range for these guitars? It is not easy for me to measure it, but to my untrained eye, it apears to be between 3 to 4 degrees. Is this a 'good' break angle? Or, is it incorrect and the the underwhelming sixth string bass a consequence of it being incorrect? The guitar is strung with 13-56 D'Addaris PB strings. I am attaching a few pictures for you good people to analyze and comment:










Will appreciate you comments and help!

Thanks.

[Michael Messer]

Hi Fibrebundle,

The break angle on your guitar is shallow, but it is perfectly acceptable. Nothing to worry about at all, but you do have very little room for adjustments.

If your bass string is dull it is most likely due to that shallow angle, but fixing it is a skilled job for an experienced luthier. So my advice would be to leave it and accept the sound of your guitar.

However, if you do want to adjust it, the proper way is to reset the neck.

Resetting the neck is a very skilled job..., there are a few quick-fix methods. Here's a couple...

The first and my least favourite is to under-string the tailpiece so the strings come from under the tailpiece, rather than over it. This is okay, but will add more break angle than necessary.

The other solution is to tune your guitar in high tunings, rather than low ones; EBEG#BE and EAEAC#E will certainly cure the lack of bass.

One other quick-fix method would be to use a heavier bass E string like a 58 or 59.

What you are experiencing there with your guitar is one of the things we make sure about on all MM and Busker guitars. Every MM & Busker guitar gets a full service before it is shipped to a customer. That full service can be anything from a 30 minute string change and check-over, to a 4 hour neck reset and partial re-fret. I cannot say 'never', but we do our best to ensure that all MM & Busker guitars go out with a 'near perfect' set up. This is the reason for our guitars playing so well.

I wouldn't worry about it, your guitar is fine and the break angle is similar to many antique Nationals that play & sound wonderful.

Shine On
Michael.

[fibrebundle]

Thanks, Michael.
I'm curious: how did you conclude the the guitar needs a neck reset?
Can I not just increase the saddle height, by changing the saddle to a slightly taller one, or maybe just change the biscuit completely to a NRP biscuit, and keep the height more than this? I do have relief to play with (I've checked it be putting a capo on the first fret and the twelfth and checking the string clearance at the seventh fret). I can lower it a bit by turning the truss rod, I suspect, so that the overall action says the same.
In any case, what is a 'good' break angle range?

[Michael Messer]

Hi Fibrebundle,

The reason for resetting the neck is to get the break angle correct and still keep the string height (action) nice and playable.

You can just raise the bridge saddle, but then your string height will probably be too high? If not, just raise your saddle a couple of mm with a slither or two of wood under the saddle in the biscuit slot.

You can also adjust the truss rod to pull the neck back a little, but I doubt if it will be enough.

Having said all that, my original comment was that it looks fine, and it does. I wouldn't worry too much

Shine On
Michael.

[fibrebundle]

I REALLY appreciate your comments, Michael. The guitar sounds quite good, actually. However, I have always wondered about changing the bridge to an NRP one, as you have often advocated.
Is this a straightforward change (as in cutting new string slots, etc.), or is there something one needs to be wary of, when fixing an NRP bridge on a continental cone?
If it is straightforward, it might just give me an excuse to raise the saddle height by a millemeter or two!

[Michael Messer]

My pleasure.

A National Reso-Phonic biscuit & bridge will go straight on to your cone without any problems at all. It is very easy swap and might gain you a mm or two.

Strings off >> coverplate off >>cone out >>biscuit off >> compare two biscuit/bridges on a flat surface for basic height adjustment >> new biscuit on >> use old strings to do set-up without coverplate on >> old strings off >>coverplate on >>new strings on >>tune up >> DONE!

Shine On
Michael.

[fibrebundle]

THANKS!!!!!

[Deleted]

Hello Mr. Messer!
I was once on your forum one month ago with a question about a fender fr 50, a friends guitar, you told me a couple of sugestions and it went out very well. Thank you for that!
but now i have a very simular problem like the Mr. has got from above, now on my guitar, a single cone Johnson. i bought a cone and buiscit bridge from stewmac and i want to change them tommorow, to have a better sound, if it is possible...i hope so, sounds logically to me...or?? now, the problem would be this...i saw at a video for reso setups, it was Dan Erlewine and it sounded very ok when i saw that they were puting a 3mm metal piece under the tailpiece to avoid the nasal tone, and my johnson has got it plenty, no crispy tone...now, today i changed the new tailpiece that was a little higher and put on the old strings and the old cone, just to see if there was a change at all. there is a change, the is less volume, but sustain and higher tones are maby a little better than before, i am not so shure yet...the volume makes me worries. is it too much, 3mm?? there they said that it is very good if the angle (you were talking about it above) is almost gone. its almost flat and paralel with the strings on the other side of the bridge. did i make a mistake? or if i put on the new cone and bridge and new heavyer strings and if i put the bridge with 1-2 mm higher action (i play only slide, it would be ok for me if it is a high action) will it be ok? i like the old sounding cryspyer tone, can i get it at all with this low budget guitar?? we dont have here any guitars like this or anybody with this kind of knowledge. could you give me a sugestion?
thanks again and all the best Mr. Messer!!

Cheers,

Alex from Macedonia

[Michael Messer]

Hello Alex,

Of course I remember you.

If I can help you I will.

Use the original tailpiece and do not raise it up at all. It should be fine. A new cone and biscuit will do it. There is no need to raise the tailpiece - a good set-up job will do it.

Alex, can you post some photos of your guitar for me to look at. It is so much easier with photos.

What cone did you get?

Shine On
Michael.

[Deleted]

Hello Mr. Messer!

i ordered the cheaper spun cone 29 dollar one from stewmac, not the paul beard....maby i should take the PB...it wasnt much...but ill put it tomorow, i am looking forward, i know, deep inside of me, that it cant be bad as the johnson original cone...tha bad thing is that i glued the metal with a two component glue that is like metal...stupid of me...maby i can take one mm with the...i dont know the english word for it...its like sand paper but made of metal??)) you got it? ok, and is it ok if i dont manage to make the tailpiece lower again, to make the bridge a little higher, 1-2 mm?? i can not put today a foto, but maby tomorow...sorry...

Alex

[Michael Messer]

Hi Alex,

Good luck with your guitar. I am sure it will sound much better.

Let me know how you get on

Shine On,
Michael

[pete1951]

It would make setups much better if the break angle could be adjusted. Some early tail-ps. had 6 small posts insted of the pressed metal hump of most National tail-ps. Maybe a return to the older style might be the answer? The posts could be threaded to give custom adjustment. Idealy the cover-plate would have 6 oval cutouts under the post / ballends to give clearance and let the tail-p. get close to the plate and stop buzz of ballend on plate .
This would be a new-build / new guitar mod, anything done to a vintage guitar would have to be removable.
Pete T

[mistercanetoad]

As somebody who has half a dozen resonators of varying quality..(.MM Blues and a Goldtone being faves) this is a common problem and a neck reset is not usually worth doing unless you have a precious guitar. I've tried hammering the hump a bit flatter which is an easy way of gaining a few mm. There's the much criticised understring which can work but the string tension pulls thin tailpices up and its a bit drastic anyway unless the neck is way off..Surely it must be possible to manufacture an adjustable tailpiece...from strings flat on the cover plate to a few mm up. Its got to be one of the most important factors in the sound of a resonator. I ve seen the usual pressed tail pieces and those posh american cast ones and not much else......any ideas.... there must be a gap in the (admittedly not huge) market here?

[mistercanetoad]

p.s. An adjustable tailpiece seems to be standard kit for your average banjo player

[Michael Messer]

National & Dobro guitars have been fine for the past 82 years. I see no reason for an adjustable tailpiece.

Shine On
Michael.