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Post by eholst on Jun 14, 2010 6:26:50 GMT
Hi Honeyboy
Audacity is the very one my friend has...I have already talked to him this morning about this issue.....
Yes, in this field I am at the beginning stage, but I should explore it much more... :-)
I have by the way, already downloaded the user guide for Reaper last night, and it does look very well documented and well structered, at first glance....
Many thanks again Honeyboy...a big help indeed !!!! :-)
Garrysmith, you right too, that finding the eq frequency where this noise is located, then cut the eq level for this frequency.....and the Q could help here, that is, if it can hit the right frequenzy.....:-)
Best wishes
Eholst
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Post by growler on Jun 14, 2010 7:19:36 GMT
Impressive as these recording diagrams appear to be, I find the whole thing quite daunting .......... Most of my recording is done ( or attempted to be done ) on a Zoom HD8 which comes with a manual about the size of the ' Holy Bible'. I know I can take what I have recoded and transfer it in a file form to a computer to fine tune it . As for using a computer to record with, having to learn another programme which to most people like myself find so hard to do, you can either grasp it or you cannot . With the availability of all this relatively cheap equipment for recording and effects nowadays,it comes with a price? ..... for me the only downside is the manuals that have to be read , and understood in order to work the damn stuff . To give you an example I am recently looking at replacing 3 Boss pedals in a one of their own brand boxes , which is the size of a small attache case for the new , much, much smaller, Samson Zoom A2 Acoustic effects unit. This has Chorus,Delay and Compression included in it , thus cancelling out the need of the other pedals. But when you read the reviews, which I always tend to do before I buy, it says.......... " Steer clear of it unless you know how to, or are happy with having to programme things". Why, cannot in this day and age, people design something that is that simple, all you have to do is just ' plug and play it ' , just like any one of the pedals that I will be replacing. I am going to make a phone call today to actually find out if it is really necessary for me to invest in this new piece of equipment , or just stick with what I have got , and save myself the time in not having to delve through and try to understand another ' Manual' , and use the time gained for playing my guitars.
Regards
A frustrated Growler
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Post by Michael Messer on Jun 14, 2010 9:20:58 GMT
Growler, you have made a very good point that I agree with, especially the last sentence of your message. More time playing guitars and less time fiddling with machines!
It takes more than just understanding the software to make a good recording on a computer, just as it does to make a good recording in a studio. All that has happened is that the massive bank of equipment in recording studios that looks like the control centre of a starship has been reduced in size to fit in your PC. That doesn't make it any easier to use, just smaller and cheaper. So there is no reason to expect anyone other than an experienced sound engineer, or people who have worked in studios for many years, to be able to use this stuff properly.
As for instruction manuals.........I cannot write on a public forum what I think of them!
Shine On Michael.
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Post by blueshome on Jun 14, 2010 11:05:47 GMT
I'm jumping in late to this discussion, but I feel that maybe the problem should be fixed at source rather than being masked by manipulation in post-production.
If the high frequency slide noise is always in the same range, then it is probably a resonant frequency related to all the parts of the sound production chain, starting with the weight and material of the slide, your touch on the strings and the amount of right/left-hand damping. It is also a function of the strings and the particular instrument which may be leading to an exaggeration of slide related sounds. On top of this, mic positioning will also determine what frequencies are emphasised.
Taking all this into account, I would suggest the following to be taken one at a time:
Review your sliding/damping technique Try a different guitar to check if it is you or your guitar causing the problem Try different strings Tune up or down a semi-tone Try a different slide If your guitar has an ebony-capped saddle, replace it with maple to reduce the hf emphasis Experiment with the mic positioning and your position in the room when recording, try a different room.
If all this fails, then you are back to EQ-ing the frequencies out, but they will still be there when you play live. Those high frequencies can really annoy an audience, although I would regard some slide noise as just part of the performance and inevitable.
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Post by Michael Messer on Jun 14, 2010 11:18:30 GMT
Hi Phil,
You are absolutely correct, but maybe you missed my first reply to eholst which said pretty much the same as you have said.
Shine On Michael.
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Post by eholst on Jun 14, 2010 12:15:00 GMT
Hi again
Phil is right, as Michael also mentioned in an early reply....playing techniques regarding damping of strings, string tention, moving speed of the slide, mic positioning etc....I do think I have tried some of these things....I wouldn't say that is is very annoying on the recording, but I still think half the level of this noise would greatly improve the quality....
Phil is also right that it is a part of the music, we can't expect it to be removed completely, and properbly shouldn't....
I remember on a recoring on the "tyr" record from 1991 with Black Sabbath, the opening number played by Tony Iommi also reveals a noise when he slides his fingers from one fret to another, it is quite clear on the recording. So yes, we should not make music "sterile".... :-)
I do think that in all professional productions in a recording studio must include several post-production steps including eq, compression, noise suppresion, mix level etc....
Best wishes
Eholst
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Post by growler on Jun 14, 2010 12:58:05 GMT
I think it is great to hear that ' swishing noise' as Leo Kottkes fingers slide up and down his strings, also Ry Cooders ' fret knocking ' he does on some of his slower acoustic blues numbers ......... why try and EQ it out .......I think it adds to it.
regards
Growler
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Post by Steverb on Jun 14, 2010 13:41:11 GMT
I guess it also partially depends on what sort of music you are recording. I don't think Son House or Bukka White were too bothered about slide noise, but if you were recording something quiet and etherial you would obviously want to minimise it.
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Post by Steverb on Jun 14, 2010 13:52:39 GMT
Whilst, as quite a tecnophobe myself, I have empathy with Growler and Michael's sentiments, I do think there is often a trade-off between size and useability. If you are going to cram umpteen stompbox models into one small box it stands to reason that you have to have loads of scroll menus and confusing multi-function controls to get it to fit! likewise your Zoom recorder - to get all those functions in a palm-sized box you need a manual to explain how to work it. Of course they can design things that are (relatively) easy to use - but they have to come in bigger boxes or have far fewer features.
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Post by Michael Messer on Jun 14, 2010 17:58:04 GMT
Steverb, your point about instruction manuals is well put and absolutely right.
Regarding the slide string noise issue; in a recording session it depends on the producer's taste as to whether it is wanted or not. Sometimes I like it there and sometimes not. If I do not want it there I need to play in a way that minimises the noise, and mic the guitar in a way that does the same. I do like to EQ and filter these things out in post production. On my recent albums I have intentionally left everything in; amplifier hum & buzz, string noises and anything else that added to the effect that I was trying to create.
Shine On Michael.
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Post by honeyboy on Jun 14, 2010 18:22:09 GMT
MIchael, Interesting insights into the recording of your last album.. Since it is more than 4 years since the release of 'Lucky Charms', do you have any plans for a new recording anytime soon? Honeyboy
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Post by Michael Messer on Jun 14, 2010 20:28:10 GMT
Hi Honeyboy,
The launch of MM guitars and one or two other projects has meant that I haven't released an album since 2006.
I am itching to make another MM studio album, but with the current climate and the state of the record industry, it is very hard to get record companies to invest. I am old school in that respect and have only ever made records that have been commissioned and paid for by record companies. I have made nine albums like that, but sadly I think changes in the industry are making that approach very difficult.
I am currently working on putting together a live Michael Messer & Ed Genis album. In 27 years of playing together, apart from the Sound Techniques DVD, we have never released anything of just the two of us. I have a stack of live recordings which I am currently wading through to find the good stuff. Mostly recorded with my Zoom H4n, this is something I have wanted to do since I first heard Bruce Springsteen's Nebraska album, recorded on a Portastudio, and Michelle Shocked's Texas Campfire Tapes, recorded on a Sony Walkman. I know it has taken a long time, but I really like the idea of releasing an album that was recorded on a domestic 300 quid recorder. I also think that we deliver the best music when we are playing to people, rather than in a studio.
The stuff I mentioned about creating atmosphere by leaving in as much ambient room sounds as possible was something I was totally committed to doing on Second Mind and the Play The Blues recordings. On Lucky Charms we did not push those areas as much as it is more acoustic sounding. On Second Mind & Play The Blues, which were both recorded on a Fostex 16 track reel to reel machine; in addition to amp buzzes and ambient sounds, I would not allow the engineer to clean the tape heads during the recording sessions. The heads were cleaned twice during the whole process; once before we started recording and again before we started mixing. This is totally unheard of and something I had to insist on much against the engineer's wishes. I was trying to get as much dirt into the recordings as possible, but without faking it, so I decided that back in Chess & Stax, and other similar studios in the 50s, in is pretty unlikely that they bothered to clean recording heads, and even if they did they were all smoking so much that those recording heads would probably have been filthy! So that is what I did. The heads on the Fostex were literally brown from tape residue. Wonderful!
In addition to filthy recording heads I also used some very bad microphones, and quite a few VERY good ones. Among the bad ones was my trusty old 1980s AKG 125 which rattles when you shake it. I recorded all sorts of things with that mic, including Ruby Turner's vocals. She thought I was nuts, but I got the sound. On Lucky Charms for example, Knife Song was recorded by playing a cheap electric drum kit plugged into my little National amp and recorded live with my guitar all into the AKG 125. The turnatables also went down live, but DI into the desk. This gave me the Exile On Main Street sound that I was shooting for on that track.
I did lots of stuff like that on those records. Mic'ing the piano and using that instead of the drum mics to get the drum sound....etc. I would need to go through every track to remember all the stuff that we did to create the effect I was after. Interestingly, the more I pushed everything in that direction, the closer I got to the sound I was after. I never changed any strings through the sessions, we overheated the amps by wrapping them in cushions before using them, no sound baffling, everything in the same room. I even did a few things to myself to get into that headspace.
I see Play The Blues, Second Mind & Lucky Charms as one project. Lucky Charms being the more acoustic of the three.
I do not believe it is possible to make a record that sounds like Exile On Main Street or Smokestack Lightning by using modern technology in a sterile environment. So I went for it and I am very proud of those three records.
I do also have a lot of live recordings of the Second Mind Band which I am also considering using to make a live Second Mind album.
I don't think I would do another in that way. My next studio record will be different. I've done that now!
Shine On Michael.
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Post by Stevie on Jun 14, 2010 21:05:19 GMT
Priceless!
Where else but here brothers and sisters?
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Post by Michael Messer on Jun 14, 2010 21:25:59 GMT
Hi Steve,
Good to hear from you. Glad you like the thread. It has taken a few twists and turns, but is kind of all related to eholst's original question.
Keep in touch,
Shine On Michael
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Post by honeyboy on Jun 14, 2010 21:55:27 GMT
Michael,
Thanks for the reply.
Both the live projects sound absolutely great.
Can't wait to hear them!.
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