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Post by Sarah Fowler on Jul 22, 2008 1:04:53 GMT
I have a National Guitar. purchased in 1953 I am unable to find any information on it or even find one similar to it. the serial number is x46149 It is acoustic with electric pick up. the color is the starburst color is very similar to the Havana with the spanish neck. but the front is completely different. it doesnt have the round plate on the front. I have photos If there is an address to send them. Thank you for reading this and I hope that you can help Sarah
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Post by Colin McCubbin on Jul 22, 2008 2:22:15 GMT
Hi Sarah,
conehead@notecannons.com should get to me...
I look forward to seeing the guitar. I'll post the pics here too.
Aloha
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Post by Colin McCubbin on Jul 23, 2008 15:06:07 GMT
Sarah's Guitar
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Post by Mark Makin on Jul 23, 2008 15:46:25 GMT
Hello Sarah and Colin This guitar looks to me to be a version of the "New Yorker". Around this time it might have been advertised as a Model 1120. The vinyl pickups are usually found on electrics around 1952/55. This scratchplate was used mostly on the Supro version of this instrument - The "Supro El Capitan". It almost looks identical in finish and fittings to the "El Capitan" except that your instrument definitely has a National headstock not the pointed Supro type.
So I would say that it is a slight variant of a usual National New Yorker . I would suggest from your serial number that it is nearer to late 1954/55 than 1953. Best Mark
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Post by Sarah Fowler on Jul 23, 2008 22:58:57 GMT
I know that the serial number dates it around 54/55 but my mom put it on layaway in the Fall of 1953 for my dad for their first anniversary.
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Post by Mark Makin on Jul 24, 2008 11:11:48 GMT
Sarah I've been studying these instruments for around 40 years. What answer would you like me to give you? If you have different ideas don't let me stop you believing what you like. best wishes
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Post by Michael Messer on Jul 24, 2008 15:18:48 GMT
Hi Sarah,
You may not be aware, but you are talking with probably the most knowledgeable person in the world on this subject. Mark has nothing to do with the running of this forum, he is a contributor like yourself. If Mark says your guitar is a particular model & year (unless you can prove otherwise), I would advise you to take his information as fact.
If you took your guitar to a dealer for this information - I pretty much guarantee that (A) you would be charged a fee for the information - and (B) that it would be incorrect. The specialist area that your instrument falls into, is VERY specialized and is not understood by any dealers or so called 'experts' that I know of. If you don't belive me - phone any leading dealer and ask them about a National model 1120 or a Supro El Capitan and see what they say!
Between Mark, Colin, myself and our forum members, I believe there is nowhere in the world to go for better knowledge of National guitars.
Keep in touch,
Shine On, Michael.
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Post by Sarah Fowler on Jul 24, 2008 20:24:10 GMT
Im so very sorry if I have offended you. but My mom is here with me and she knows when she bought it. Im truly sorry for any hard fealings you may have on the situation I wasnt trying to be mean I just wanted to let you know the information that I have on the guitar. My mom is here and she said she was married march 3 1952, and she bought it for my dad in 1953.
again I am truely sorry Sarah
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Post by sarahfowler on Jul 24, 2008 20:32:18 GMT
Im really sorry. I will look through my moms files and find the invoice where she purchased the guitar. Thank you for the information. I really appreciate it all and Best wishes.
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Post by Colin McCubbin on Jul 24, 2008 23:54:46 GMT
Hi Sarah, Thanks for your private email.. I know Mark Makin really well, and don't think you have offended him or us in any way. The serial numbers from that period aren't absolute, at least I'm not aware that the Valco factory (Valco 'owned' National and other makes at that time) actually ever published a definitive list, and thus all Mark is doing is making an educated guess, based on his research. He has as far as I know the most exhaustive collection of National sales brochures of anyone in the world. Various researchers have published lists over the years, here for example is part of Clay Harrelson's page on the subject, he puts your serial #x46149 into the 1955 year.. Valco Serial Number Plates 1940-1964. Beginning in 1940, National/Valco serial numbers were on a small oblong metal plate (brass or aluminum). This plate was tacked to the back of the neck with two small brass nails. The following serial numbers apply to all Valco made National instruments, including lapsteels and guitars. These plates were also put on amplifiers. All Valco made instruments were numbered this way till 1964. Valco also made instruments for Sears (Silvertone), Montgomery Wards (Airline), Gretsch, Oahu and others. These are numbered with the same metal tag system. Number range Year ------------ ---- G suffix 1940-1942 V100 V7500 1947 V7500 V15000 1948 V15000 V25000 1949 V25000 V35000 1950 V35000 V40000 1951 X100 X7000 1951 X7000 X17000 1952 X17000 X30000 1953 X30000 X43000 1954 X43000 X57000 1955 X57000 X71000 1956 X71000 X85000 1957 X85000 X99000 1958 T100 T5000 1958 T5000 T25000 1959 T25000 T50000 1960 T50000 T75000 1961 T75000 T90000 1962 G100 G5000 1962 T90000 T99000 1963 G5000 G15000 1963 G15000 G40000 1964 It is possible, and I see no reason to doubt when you say that your guitar is indeed from 1953, so don't fret about it! One possibility is that it went back to the factory for work (perhaps the neck warped?) and they fitted a newer neck at that point, or even that without telling your Mum, your Dad 'traded up' a few years later to a newer version of the guitar your Mum bought him. Pickups in particular were evolving fast at that point so if he was a serious player he might well have sought the latest upgrade. It would still have been a 'New Yorker' and to anyone but him it would probably have looked like the same guitar! If we really want to be 'picky' then if you ever have work done on it you could ask the technician to see if the volume control has a date code on it, some do. If it is 1955 then we'll have to accept that it is of that year. If earlier then the neck may not be from the original instrument. Finally some instruments had the date stamped or handwritten inside the body. A high end luthier local to you may well have a wee video camera on the end of flexible stalk to look inside instruments for damage, and you might find a definitive date that way. Aloha, Colin
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Post by sarahfowler on Jul 25, 2008 1:09:53 GMT
Hey Colin,
I took my camera and light and found the number 1125 printed in black inside the body maybe that will be helpful. thank you Sarah
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Post by Colin McCubbin on Jul 25, 2008 4:23:50 GMT
The 1125 did exist, in the May 15, 1953 catalogue, it is listed as $120, and It is called the "Dynamic", regular finish, (In the blond finish it is the 1120 'New Yorker" ($135)). (Edit: Now posted a better scan from an orig sales document. ) Pu looks different, though, and placement of Vol/tone controls. I don't have the '54 or '55 cats though.. Mark/Michael, have you?
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Post by Michael Messer on Jul 25, 2008 9:12:47 GMT
Hi Sarah,
You have not offended anyone, just provoked a 'healthy' discussion! the problem with forums is that a conversation is in print and that can look more serious than it actually is.
I will leave the research & identification to Mark & Colin on this one. What I would like to see, not for any research reasons, (just because we love these instruments and their history), would be a photo or two of your Dad with his National guitar. Did he play it professionally or just for fun, and if so can you tell us about when and where he played? Also, as this is an electric guitar, do you still have the amplifier?
Shine On, Michael.
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Post by Mark Makin on Jul 25, 2008 12:27:30 GMT
Hello Sarah As Colin explained, this is not an exact science. It seems that there are always exceptions to the rule. This is why I specifically said that your instrument was "...NEARER to 1954/55 than 53." I wish it was possible to tell you your instrument was made at 11.30 in the morning of June 23rd 1953 but it's not. Dating is usually achieved with a combination of serial numbers and specific features on the instrument that are known to come from a particular time. In your case, the pickup appears on other Nationals from 1952 -1954 and the scratchplate appears on Supros from 1954. I have enclosed the catalogue page from 1954 for the "El Capitan" which, as I said, is also the same instrument (Just a different headstock shape). I think you have discovered all the facts necessary yourself - you have a family connection to the end of 1953 with the instrument and it also says "1125" inside. That is about all there is to say. Like I said at the beginning - it's a National New Yorker variant from around 1953 to 1955. Best Mark
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Post by sarah on Jul 25, 2008 15:04:43 GMT
thank you guys, my mom is pleased to know that she isnt crazy ;D I really appreciate your help on this matter. any idea of what kind of insurance value it may have at this time? thanks Sarah
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