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Post by creolian on Jun 25, 2019 9:58:40 GMT
Hello all,
I spent a few hours this evening listening to RJ, wondering about tunings and technique and still am baffled as to how he got so much texture out of a single track. From my experience with a 12 string I know its possible to pick just one string or brush both... especially with the high notes. Watching how Rory Block and Woody Mann approach RJ technique wise is enlightening but... Listening to hellhound Im wondering if RJ might have been using a 12 string guitar with only 7 or 8 strings. I read some speculation that he possibly strung two strings through one tuner but that doesn't make sense from a tuning standpoint. There is something going on there that doesn't sound like a six string guitar strung with .13s...
thoughts ?
best, Jeff
p.s. I apologize if this is a worn out subject... yesterday, I heard that Dave Bartholemew passed and Im tired of funerals...
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Post by pete1951 on Jun 25, 2019 12:23:58 GMT
Was it Keith Richard who said ( on first hearing RJ) “ Who’s the other guitarist?” There are many who now come very close to playing RJ note-for-note, but they are standing on the shoulders of a giant. Pete
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Post by jono1uk on Jun 25, 2019 15:26:28 GMT
Hello all, I spent a few hours this evening listening to RJ, wondering about tunings and technique and still am baffled as to how he got so much texture out of a single track. From my experience with a 12 string I know its possible to pick just one string or brush both... especially with the high notes. Watching how Rory Block and Woody Mann approach RJ technique wise is enlightening but... Listening to hellhound Im wondering if RJ might have been using a 12 string guitar with only 7 or 8 strings. I read some speculation that he possibly strung two strings through one tuner but that doesn't make sense from a tuning standpoint. There is something going on there that doesn't sound like a six string guitar strung with .13s... thoughts ? best, Jeff p.s. I apologize if this is a worn out subject... yesterday, I heard that Dave Bartholemew passed and Im tired of funerals... What about the 7 string that he supposedly had?
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Post by creolian on Jun 26, 2019 1:31:02 GMT
I read some interwebs speculation regarding a 7 string... what I recall was someone with the idea that he ran two strings through one tuner on a trad six string. This seems absurd in that there would be almost no way to tune both strings to unison or any other interval.
Im listening to kind hearted woman and it sure sounds like a pair of unison tuned strings in there.
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Post by pete1951 on Jun 26, 2019 16:43:33 GMT
I have never considered the possibility of multiple strings on RJs guitar but have always thought he was using octaves or sometimes 2 notes in unison. He does this on Hellhound on the open bottom string with the same note fretted on the 5th or 4th an octave higher and on the top string (Kindhearted Woman I think, will listen later) on the top string and the 2nd string fretted. I think that if there were a double string it would be more noticeable We may never know Pete
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Post by jono1uk on Jun 26, 2019 17:33:21 GMT
if he is CFCACF tuning as beleived itis thought( by players much more experienced then myself) on here that the low E string isn't used..
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Post by Michael Messer on Jun 26, 2019 17:58:28 GMT
With the greatest respect, I can't understand anyone having thoughts of weird tunings or extra strings. Having listened literally inch by inch and looped almost every phrase of every song to decode the playing, there is nowhere I or any other people I know that do similar research, hear anything that makes us think of an extra string or a weird tuning. Robert was one of a line of delta blues musicians that sung and played in the same style and used the same tunings as each other. What Robert did was approach the writing in an unusual way for a delta musician and sometimes the singing is closer to jazz than to blues (Love In Vain for example), and of course he souped up the playing.
Shine On Michael
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Post by blueshome on Jun 27, 2019 20:37:36 GMT
Just have a listen to “The Roots of Robert Johnson” on Yazoo. It’s clear that, whilst there are some great lyrical work, most of the playing is derivative of popular blues recording artists plus those such as Son House who he had direct contact with. This is not to diminish RJ’s brilliance but puts him in the context of what was going on in his musical world at the time.
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Post by creolian on Jun 27, 2019 21:10:58 GMT
With the greatest respect, I can't understand anyone having thoughts of weird tunings or extra strings. Having listened literally inch by inch and looped almost every phrase of every song to decode the playing, there is nowhere I or any other people I know that do similar research, hear anything that makes us think of an extra string or a weird tuning. Robert was one of a line of delta blues musicians that sung and played in the same style and used the same tunings as each other. What Robert did was approach the writing in an unusual way for a delta musician and sometimes the singing is closer to jazz than to blues (Love In Vain for example), and of course he souped up the playing. Shine On Michael Hi Michael, Ive never tried to do anything more specific than grab the general feel of the changes... comping. Its about the best I can do as note for note transcription is really tough for me and playing anything the same exact way twice is nigh impossible. Ive never really tried to cop what RJ was doing probably because I generally find my fingers are about two inches short... maybe what hes doing is beyond my reach... in more ways than one... Ill defer to your assessment Michael... even if its not something as sensational as I hoped to hear ;-) Ive always thought some of his songs and the way he plays had sort of an orchestral approach like hes playing guitar parts in an ensemble. Something about the space between the notes being suggestive... sometimes the time jumping and decorated chords sound arranged. His vocal style sometimes seems to sorta pay homage to some of the white jazz crooners of the 20s and 30s. Like his guitar playing, he has more than one voice. Too bad we will never know what his musical training or experience was. Ive spent some time with Kevin Moore ( keb mo ) working on a film in the early 2ks and have wondered if RJ might have had a more urban ( trained ) musical experience ever since... as far as the devil business goes. I think its important to understand the spiritual perspectives of the original Africans descendants living in the American south, both then and still today. Fiercly superstitious, big on ritual, offerings, symbolism, a reliance on oral history, lore, legend and not least of all, music. When I hear those primitive blues, I can hear the influence of the drum, the Kora, the chants, etc. Sadly, western African spirituality as combined with European Christanity has been exploited for its entertainment value and most people have a rather dramatized perception. I cant explain, but I still hear people talk about the influence of the loa and the importance of listening to your first mind... things most of us do but just use different words to describe. Gris Gris Monkey Dust, may the good lord do right by all of us ! Jeff
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Post by Andymccann on Jun 27, 2019 22:25:45 GMT
“I don’t care where you bury my body when I’m dead and gone” says a lot about the lad. I often think of him playing into a corner when recording to add to the audible completely. I think that was a trick back then. He’s not my favourite recorded bluesman (always though his songs were a bit same-y, cough cough) but he sure had dexterity.
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Post by Michael Messer on Jun 28, 2019 8:08:32 GMT
With the greatest respect, I can't understand anyone having thoughts of weird tunings or extra strings. Having listened literally inch by inch and looped almost every phrase of every song to decode the playing, there is nowhere I or any other people I know that do similar research, hear anything that makes us think of an extra string or a weird tuning. Robert was one of a line of delta blues musicians that sung and played in the same style and used the same tunings as each other. What Robert did was approach the writing in an unusual way for a delta musician and sometimes the singing is closer to jazz than to blues (Love In Vain for example), and of course he souped up the playing. Shine On Michael Hi Michael, Ive never tried to do anything more specific than grab the general feel of the changes... comping. Its about the best I can do as note for note transcription is really tough for me and playing anything the same exact way twice is nigh impossible. Ive never really tried to cop what RJ was doing probably because I generally find my fingers are about two inches short... maybe what hes doing is beyond my reach... in more ways than one... Ill defer to your assessment Michael... even if its not something as sensational as I hoped to hear ;-) Ive always thought some of his songs and the way he plays had sort of an orchestral approach like hes playing guitar parts in an ensemble. Something about the space between the notes being suggestive... sometimes the time jumping and decorated chords sound arranged. His vocal style sometimes seems to sorta pay homage to some of the white jazz crooners of the 20s and 30s. Like his guitar playing, he has more than one voice. Too bad we will never know what his musical training or experience was. Ive spent some time with Kevin Moore ( keb mo ) working on a film in the early 2ks and have wondered if RJ might have had a more urban ( trained ) musical experience ever since... as far as the devil business goes. I think its important to understand the spiritual perspectives of the original Africans descendants living in the American south, both then and still today. Fiercly superstitious, big on ritual, offerings, symbolism, a reliance on oral history, lore, legend and not least of all, music. When I hear those primitive blues, I can hear the influence of the drum, the Kora, the chants, etc. Sadly, western African spirituality as combined with European Christanity has been exploited for its entertainment value and most people have a rather dramatized perception. I cant explain, but I still hear people talk about the influence of the loa and the importance of listening to your first mind... things most of us do but just use different words to describe. Gris Gris Monkey Dust, may the good lord do right by all of us ! Jeff Jeff, I think you have a similar viewpoint to mine on RJ's music and some of his influences. There is no doubt about the jazz and urban influences. I also spent time with Kevin back in the 90s when he first started to get known. Along with Roy Rogers, Roy Bookbinder and one or two others, we were all part of a blues festival package. Listening to your first mind and all that ..... is why I called my 2002 album, Second Mind. I like the remains of African culture and religion that kind of hung on in there with a bit of romanticism thrown in, but I don't like to see the the beauty and brilliance of this folk art-form devalued by creating mythology around it for no other reason than making money. I actually find it somewhat ironic and vulgar that an art-form created by people living in terrible conditions and poverty is now a lucrative industry. ...Should've listened my old second mind.... Shine On Michael
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Post by Michael Messer on Jun 28, 2019 8:17:46 GMT
“I don’t care where you bury my body when I’m dead and gone” says a lot about the lad. I often think of him playing into a corner when recording to add to the audible completely. I think that was a trick back then. He’s not my favourite recorded bluesman (always though his songs were a bit same-y, cough cough) but he sure had dexterity. That method of recording in the corner of the room was and still is called "corner loading" and is a way of optimising the sound hitting the microphone. Again I disagree with the myth that it was Robert's way of recording because he was shy. That just doesn't make any sense because (a) I don't hear a shy person when I listen to his music, and (b) how would Robert have known about corner loading as he was not used to being recorded. It was far more likely to have been Don Law's way of working, as Don was a master recording engineer and producer with an extraordinary track record. Shine On Michael
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Post by jono1uk on Jun 28, 2019 9:27:06 GMT
The new book says he didn't "Corner Load" in Texas sessions as claimed .it states it was done in the centre of the room ..
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Post by Michael Messer on Jun 28, 2019 12:13:50 GMT
Jono, I don't know where all this is coming from and how there can be new information when everybody connected to RJ was interviewed decades ago and are now all dead. So now everything that was said in interviews with the people that knew RJ is now not true! To my knowledge all the information about the recording sessions came from interviews with Don Law. I believe Don even corrected and verified the sleeve notes on the first album. How can there be any new information. As I keep saying, there is nothing new to be discovered and the more the original stories and facts are re-written, the less interested I become. Let's face it, there is no way anybody can confirm what happened in a hotel room recording studio more than 80 years ago. All there is to go on is what Don Law talked about. Whether Robert was recorded in the centre of the room or in the corner really doesn't matter or make any difference to anything. The music is all we need, the rest is mythology, folklore and legend.
Shine On Michael
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Post by jono1uk on Jun 28, 2019 18:07:01 GMT
from the book..."in a letter from Don Law to Historian Frank Driggs in 1961, Law reiterated that the only time he turned his back when playing was in front of some Mexican musicians who were also recording there.
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