Switching between tunings on one guitar - strings and styles

[mando]

Hi there!

I recently decided I really wanted to dive into the resonator world, as I just love the sound, and the range of dynamics (and volume) they offer is very appealing.
I'm yet to get my first reso (looking for a used tricone or wooden tricone, or maybe the MM 28 will be my choice, though I prefer to buy used). But I'm already thinking about the setup and strings I should use for what I plan to play.

The thing is: I'm interested in playing both slide and standard, and I'm not really the kind of person who likes to carry 3 guitars around when playing in a jam. If I make the transition, I'd like to manage to make it my "one" main guitar.
Indeed, I'm interested in playing old jazz (trad, new orleans and swing, which would be way better in standard), as much as blues (standard and open D), and various types of folk and pop music (standard, dadgad and open D).

I first thaught that switching tuning between standard and open D everytime the song asked for it would mean the tuning would never be stable.
However, a friend suggested I could try to play in standard D (one step down from standard), which would make tuning "up" to open D or dadgad less of a problem for tuning stability (rather than tuning down from standard E).

Has anyone done that experience on resonators, and if yes would you say that switching is indeed more stable for standard D?
In this case, I guess the guitar, which would never go up to standard (E), could be strung with 13-56, or maybe even 15-56 which would be great for slide.

However, I fear that standard D, with heavy strings on a resonator, would start to sound too muddy for jazz (if you know them, I plan to play "simple happy jazz" in the style The Cats & the Fiddle, which would mostly include comping, as well as some chord melody as well as single string solos).
Anybody has any experience with jazz in standard tuned down a step? That would save me a lot of time and money trying lots of different set of strings, and more importantly, taking the guitar to the luthier each time (being rather bad a setting up a guitar, I'd probably be even worse when it comes to a resonator).

I know nothing beats one's own experience, but I'd like to try to minimize luthier's fees, and I'm pretty sure I'd be able to damage a guitar doing too many experiments on my own.
Your experiences might allow me to narrow the field of possibilities I should experiment with

[Michael Messer]

Hi Mando

Welcome to the forum.

I use one guitar on many gigs and have done for as long as I care to remember. It is no problem going from EADGBE to DGDGBD and DADF#AD in one gig from song to song. As long as the guitar is well set up and your strings are not ancient, that is absolutely fine. Sometimes, especially when I am playing in someone else's band, I am changing tunings right through the set.

On my square neck Tricone which is perfectly set up with a very shallow break angle, I sometimes go from GBDGBD to DADF#AD and back again. Sure, it can take a moment to settle, but it is fine to do that.

I do sometimes travel with a selection of guitars, but I do that for a variation of sound and to add to the show, not because I am using different tunings.

I hope that helps

Shine On
Michael.

[lonelyjelly]

I would say you’re fine, Mando. I was in a similar mindset as yourself, particularly about tuning in standard down a tone instead of regular pitch and then going from that to D Vestapol and G Spanish but since taking some lessons my teacher, along with Michael, has reassured me it’s all good. In fact my teacher always uses one guitar in standard (eadgbe) to D Vestapol, E vestapol, G Spanish and A Spanish using 13-56 without any issues. Hope that helps.

Lew

[twtx]

May 14, 2019 18:54:15 GMT mando said:

 I guess the guitar, which would never go up to standard (E), could be strung with 13-56, or maybe even 15-56 which would be great for slide.
However, I fear that standard D, with heavy strings on a resonator, would start to sound too muddy for jazz

I think the truism that resonators need heavy strings is exaggerated.  I play in open Dm, open G, Standard, Eb, and DADGAD, and a luthier suggested John Pearse Phosphor Bronze Lights (.012 - .053) when I took my National in for a set-up. The long scale guitar provides plenty of string tension for slide work, and the lighter strings make for more comfortable fingerstyle playing. I change tunings all the time, and once the strings are broken in they remain quite stable. 

[Michael Messer]

Actually what added to the confusion was that many years ago, back in the days when the only available resonator guitars were vintage Nationals and Dobros, experts did spread the word about slack tunings and extra care to be taken regarding pressure on the cone. This was a way of protecting vintage guitars for future generations and it worked. However, as well as there now being dozens of brands of these instruments, so much has been learnt since those days about set up and maintenance. For example - back then, apart from one or two people in the world, nobody knew about resetting necks to adjust break angles. These days there is so much knowledge and there are spares available almost on every high street. So a well setup instrument with a shallow break angle will take heavier strings and/or higher tunings than one with a steep break angle.

String gauges choices are of course a personal thing and some players prefer lighter strings to the most popular gauges, which are medium gauge sets. You get a different sound and feel with every gauge you try.

Shine On
Michael.

[mando]

Thanks to you all for your answers!

Being able to switch quickly from standard to open tunings would indeed suit me just fine, and hearing your positive experiences doing that is great!
Strangely, I've had way less success doing that (on non-resonator guitars and with 12-54 strings mostly, but I guess this does not really change anything). Probably bad set up or bad strings, I guess.

twtx: I definitely don't like how floppy thin strings feel when tuned down. More than that, I always find the 1rst string to sound thin and harsh, which is why I'm thinking of 13-56 or even 15-56 (having had no experience with the second, though).
The other thing is that I would appreciate the guitar to be as loud as possible, which would allow me to play more with dynamics (I don't like to always have to be going all out when playing melody along with loud instruments, as I feel the ability to play softer while still being heard would definitely add some interest to the music). It seems that in most cases, thicker strings bring more volume, especially on resonators, so that's probably the way I want to head into.


Michael: I thought a shallow break angle would have a drastic influence on volume. I understand that the tension on the cone will be lower, but isn't it much of a loss in volume?

[Michael Messer]

Hi Mando,

A shallow break angle actually allows the cone to vibrate more, and therefore sing more. Too much break angle and the cone is choked. There are no numbers for this, it is a feel thing that experienced resonator luthiers can do. Also, with a shallow break angle and heavier strings, you will get more volume. A well setup National-style resonator guitar is probably four times the volume of an acoustic guitar. For open tuned playing, which is mostly what I do, I use 15/56 gauge sets. I do use round core strings, which are also slightly louder and more vibrant than regular hexagonal core strings, and they tune to pitch at slightly less tension. So you get more mass, but they do not choke the sound. I have used those for nearly 30 years.

Shine On
Michael.

[mando]

Thank you for shedding some light on this subject, Michael.

Regarding the Newtone strings: I'm definitely planning to get them as soon as I find the reso I'm looking for   

[pete1951]

Back in the dark ages,when strings cost a weeks pocket money, I would go between standard and open G a lot. I kept breaking strings so stayed in G for the next 50years. There are a couple of things that are important if you change tuning a lot , one is your nut slots, they should be smooth and should not pinch the string. (A little graphite or ‘Nut Sauce’ is a good idea even for a perfect nut) The other is to always tune up to the note, so when tuning down, go a little past the note then back up. Friction or slop in your machine heads can cause the strings to go flat over time if you tune down to a note, tuning up fights against any slack in the system and give you a more stable note.
Pete

[maui_chimes]

I am much happier having the guitar set up and optimized for a specific tuning. Just use one guitar for each tuning.