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Post by lexluthier on Dec 1, 2018 22:19:06 GMT
Hi! Just starting a project to skin and/or build electric guitars using carbon fibre. I've been a fan of alternative materials since owning a Status mk II bass and, rather late to the game, metal bodied resonators. Anyway, this has put me in mind of Alan Timmins fantastic looking FI resonators. I've obviously seen a few pictures but I've been wondering how they sound and is there any videos, sound clips or recordings out there? Thanks, Chris.
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Post by Michael Messer on Dec 2, 2018 9:38:33 GMT
Hi Chris, Before writing anything I have pasted this into the post for people that don't know about Alan. Our friend Alan Timmins died in 2008. He was 61 years old.
Along with National Reso-Phonic Guitars in the US, Alan was one of the first people to build a National style guitar after the demise of the original National company in the 1940s. With Mark Makin’s help & advice, Alan built the body & coverplate of a brass-bodied round-neck Tricone, by hand. As far as we know, Alan’s Tricone was the first anyone had built since National ceased production. Alan’s first Tricone is owned and played by Mark Makin. Alan also was instrumental in helping Don Young at National Reso-Phonic Guitars by providing them with 20 x T-bridge parts for their first run of Tricones.
Always looking for a new conquest and being connected to the world of formula one racing cars, Alan moved from building metal resonator guitars to building them out of carbon fibre. These instruments were called ‘F1’ guitars and for the next couple of years Alan built Tricones, single cones, mandolins & ukuleles. In all there are approximately a dozen F1 instruments in existence. Of the instruments I know; Mark Makin has a mandolin and the original brass-bodied Tricone, Dave Peabody has a single cone guitar and Mike Cooper and I have round-neck Tricones. John E Dopyera, son of the inventor, said that his father, always looking for alternative and new materials, would have been fascinated by Alan’s carbon fibre F1 Nationals. Alan Timmins’ F1 resophonic guitars are unique and have their own place in resophonic guitar history.
Alan’s other contribution to the world of slide guitar was the hard-chromed steel slide that he made for me in 1991. He bored out a solid rod as he claimed (and he was right) that a solid rod bored out has a better tone and strength than a ready-made tube. I have used my Timmins slide on almost every concert & recording since 1991. After almost 27 years of constant use, it is still like new with no dings, dents or scratches! That slide was the blueprint in 2001 for the LRC King Slides that were so popular in the years that followed.
Alan occasionally and successfully promoted live music; artists he arranged and promoted concerts for include Mike Cooper, Mark Makin, Dave Peabody & myself. He got me on BBC TV in 1991, and on the same day, a live BBC radio session!
Away from his passion for music, slide guitar and Nationals, Alan Timmins was one of the world's leading experts on old clocks, watches and timepieces. He was a Fellow of the British Horological Institute (FBHI). I believe that his specialized area of knowledge was 18th century longcase clocks (Grandfather Clocks to us!). He wrote books and lectured on the subject. Alan was once approached to work at Windsor Castle as "Keeper of the Queens Clocks”. He turned the job down as the daily routine was to wind a couple of hundred clocks every morning!
Alan is greatly missed by everyone he knew and touched with his friendship, enthusiasm, generosity and encouragement.
Michael Messer
Okay.... Now on to your questions about carbon fibre resonator guitars. I should add at this point that a few years ago, John Alderson was given whatever was left of Alan's 'stuff' and he built a couple of very nice single cone carbon fibre National-style guitars. John calls them 'Dark Art' guitars. Alan Timmins was a genius inventor and maker of things, but he was not a luthier or a guitar player, so while his guitars are amazing, they do have one or two things that John took on to the next stage and improved on with his Dark Art guitars. I have a round neck tricone that Alan built and it is a superb looking and sounding guitar. It is a perfect replica of an original round neck tricone and it sounds very sweet. However, the carbon fibre is too thick and therefore the tone is slightly inhibited. I also think that it would probably sound even better if a layer of wood was added to the carbon fibre soundwell, because when played at full power I think there is a slight 'plasticy' sound, compared to a real German silver or brass tricone. On the plus side, you can drive a ten ton truck over one of Alan's tricones and apart from leaving a few tyre marks on the body, it won't even go out of tune! Carbon fibre certainly does have some acoustic properties and there are a few companies producing acoustic guitars made of this material. The problem is that it is very difficult and dangerous to work with. I am sure that John Alderson could add more information than I can about working with carbon fibre. I think that to sum up I would say that it is an amazing looking material. It does have acoustic properties and the guitars do work, but I do not think the material is as good as metal or wood and the guitars are far more difficult to build. My own F1 tricone has been out of service for a few years and on my next trip across the channel, is going to go to Mike Lewis to be 'looked at'. Here are some photos of Alan's F1 guitars.... Shine On Michael
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2018 10:34:38 GMT
I've played one of John's Dark Art guitars. It played and sounded great. I would prefer some aesthetic differences, but I'd have one. Gouranga (forum member) bought one a few years back. He found it physically warmer than metal when playing on the Scottish streets! TT
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Post by creolian on Dec 2, 2018 14:26:50 GMT
"Carbon fibre certainly does have some acoustic properties and there are a few companies producing acoustic guitars made of this material. The problem is that it is very difficult and dangerous to work with. I am sure that John Alderson could add more information than I can about working with carbon fibre. " I have a friend who builds fiber wings for drag race cars... 55k a pop. He says that the big danger with carbon fiber is breathing it and if your going to be cutting and sanding it, plan on some serious safety considerations. One of the "secrets" is how he tensions the fibre in the mold ? In regards to building a guitar, I've had this idea that tensioning the fiber might be a way to emulate various woods and their resonant qualities... I got no idea, but it's fun to imagine. I've been looking at the Peavy fibre guitars and they are nice but a bit too expensive for my budget. My current ultimate fantasy guitar is a carbon fibre, titanium cone reso ;-) J link to peavy composite acoustics... www.compositeacoustics.com/
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Post by gouranga on Dec 2, 2018 17:41:49 GMT
Hi Folks, Hope everyone is well.
I have had One of John Aldertons 'Dark Art Guitars' for about 6 or so years. I like it very much, and as Deuce said, It is much warmer to the touch when playing on the cold streets of Edinburgh and other towns in Scotland. It is also very much lighter in weight than nearly all others. The sound is nice , but a little different from the likes of MM Lightnin or MM Blues. I personally like the sound of the Lightnin and old MM blues better. But, I do very much like the Carbon fiber reso very much. I am not playing very much these days due to ill health and being unable to hold down or feel the strings, and nerve polsey in my big fat body. But still have the desire to play and try here and there.
Hope this meets you all well and happy.
Best wishes to all.
yours.
Gouranga
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Post by snakehips on Dec 2, 2018 18:53:45 GMT
Hi there !
Have you still git the early Lightning I sold you ?
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Post by Michael Messer on Dec 2, 2018 18:54:35 GMT
One thing I should add that connects to Chris's post is that via a mutual interest in making musical instruments with carbon fibre, Alan got to know one of the guys at the Status bass guitars company, and it was him that built the necks and assembled the guitars. I knew him as 'Laz', or 'Las', and for someone that knew nothing about resonator guitars and just copied an original, he did an amazing job. That is my reason for saying that John Alderson was able to move it forward, because John has built many National-style resonator guitars.
Laz built the necks really well and did the whole assembly very well too. He just wasn't tuned into the world of Tricones, pit props and neck angles. My Tricone, when I first got it from Alan, had three non-spiral Saga saucepan lid cones in it. I immediately put a set of vintage cones in it and transformed it.
I played the F1 Tricone on and off until around 2001, and since then it has been stored away. I think it is time I got it out of the cupboard and back into being played again. To do that it needs to spend a few weeks at Fine Resophonic's workshop in Paris. I feel a Eurostar trip coming on!
Shine On Michael
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Post by lexluthier on Dec 2, 2018 22:34:33 GMT
Hi! Thanks for the replies, great info and good health advice, note taken! It's obvious to see Alan was a fantastic engineer and craftsman, beautiful, beautiful guitars. My upcoming project is, at the moment, just focused on electric guitars where there is little tone consideration of carbon fibre outside of stiffness-sustain (tone wood advocates melt down now!) I've not been able to help myself however thinking about composites of CF with wood and or metal, so your comment about the sound well Michael has resonated with what I've been thinking and will reinforce my now ongoing thought exercise (all puns intended) I've no idea if I will ever get the time or opportunity to put any of this into practice but I doubt if I will stop thinking about it now. Inveterate tinkeryness plus Reso-itus, it's like GAS but worse! I've seen an odd few video clips of Johns Dark Art guitars featuring Ian, if anyone knows of any other vids or sound clips of carbon fibre reso's , please post! Thank you. Chris
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Post by Michael Messer on Dec 2, 2018 23:34:39 GMT
I just found these....
I don't know of any others. I don't think there are any films or recordings of me playing my F1. Although I did use it on a couple of tours in the 90s sometime. I fitted a nut raiser and tuned it to GBDGBD for much of the time. I also did some UK dates with it, and now I come to think of it, maybe a BBC live session using it as a bottleneck guitar. That would be around 20 years ago.
Chris, certainly with the Tricone when played at full steam ahead, it not only sounds plasticy, but it kind of swallows itself up and loses its clarity. That was the reason I tuned it up to GBDGBD and played it as a lap steel. I always attributed that to the soundwell reacting in a weird way with the three cones. It is certainly stiff enough, so it's not that. I am pretty sure that a layer or two of maple laminate would sort that out.
Shine On Michael.
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Post by lexluthier on Dec 3, 2018 2:19:49 GMT
Excellent! Thankyou for that.
It's hard to imagine(and imagine is all I can do) that anything but a steel sound well is going to sound 'right' as in my mind, the thing must ring. That is going to be a problem for a small maker as a pressed, single piece sound well is the way to go(IMHO) and that requires expensive tooling. I've been wondering for some time now if a pleb (like me) could get their hands on a pressed/stamped out sound well but it seems to me only tricone manufacturers will have them and getting one from them strikes me as unlikely. It's proving very difficult to just find T bridges and cover plates! I may have to compromise and brush up on my welding skills.(I have a non carbon fibre Tricone in the pipeline, if I can get those pieces!) Thanks again Chris
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Post by Michael Messer on Dec 3, 2018 8:54:34 GMT
Chris, possibly the most sought after National Tricones are from the 1920s and have wood soundwells. Most of those have a 10mm plywood soundwell and they sound incredible. One of the things I love about Fine Resophonic's wood bodied Tricones is the wood soundwell. Something I don't like about the NRP wood bodied single & Tricones that I have seen, is the use of a metal soundwell in a wood bodied guitar. The soundwell does not have to be steel and it does not have to ring to make it work properly. However, Tricones do have to be built properly and only a few people/companies are able to do that. Alan Timmins' Tricones sound way better than many of the Tricones being built today.
Shine On Michael.
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Post by lexluthier on Dec 3, 2018 10:08:51 GMT
Morning! I was determined to amend my own post before you got to it but alas, too late!
After posting last night I got to thinking and bet myself Mikes tricone soundwells were maple or birch ply and I know you hold those in high regard.
I am suprised and now informed by your comments on wooden welled National tricones, which I knew existed but thought the general opinion of players was that they were a touch on the dull side of the spectrum. I will amend my thinking and the plans for the pipelined (wooden) tricone.
Many thanks Chris
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Post by Michael Messer on Dec 3, 2018 11:10:08 GMT
Chris, Mike Lewis makes his own laminates (plywood) and has his own secret recipes.
Mark Makin used to own an early square neck Tricone, #133. A flat-backed square-neck with seven diamond holes in the body, non-spiralled cones and a wood soundwell. In 1986/7 I recorded with this guitar and it is one of the sweetest most beautiful sounding Tricones I have ever played, and as you know I have played a lot of Tricones. The closest I have ever heard to that guitar are Mike's Fine Resophonic wood bodied Tricones. The first time I played one of Mike's Tricones, which was in 1992, I was immediately completely blown away and besotted with his work.
Shine On Michael
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Post by pete1951 on Dec 14, 2018 10:41:50 GMT
I also was in contact with Alan (I have T bridge I think he made) and have recently come back to the idea of a tricone well made of some sort of composite, possible fibreglass with a wood bottom. The ‘plug’ is made and a friend who does fibreglass work is hopefully going to add it to the end of a bigger job. Alan must have made moulds, are they still in existence? Pete
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Post by Michael Messer on Dec 14, 2018 13:59:26 GMT
Hi Pete,
Mark Makin gave whatever was left of Alan's 'stuff' to John Alderson. He doesn't remember seeing any Tricone moulds.
Shine On Michael
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