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Post by gaucho on Aug 29, 2011 15:17:33 GMT
I know those words make a lot of folks cringe, but it's not all original (non-original neck and tuners) and it had a few issues. I've worked on some other resos before, so I feel confident. Here's what I found... The serial # is S1731. Mark M had said that makes it a '31 or so and it should have a hook on coverplate. There was no evidence of the hooks inside tho and the Pat #'s on the coverplate are the same as I have seen on other 30's Style 0's (it's stamped PAT NO 1762617, PAT NO 1741453, MADE IN U.S.A.). So is that an original 30's (although maybe not original to a '31 Style O?) National coverlate? It was super clean inside and the neck stick goes all the way thru and looks well done. There are 4 mushroom braces (2 on the body and 2 on the neck stick. One potential problem I noticed immediately is that there is a newish looking wooden shim all the way around the sound well that the cone sits on. Shouldn't the cone sit directly on the soundwell, metal to metal? The cone and biscuit are apparently original but I'm afraid I'll need a new Hot Rod and biscuit. The cone appears to be collapsed a bit and the bisciut bridge insert is pretty much all cut down. This seems to explain the problem (the only one really) with the strings sitting right on top of the coverplate at the bridge, almost touching it. Plus, if I remove the wooden shim, it will be touching. Please have a look at the photos and I welcome any comments and/or advise. Thanks in advance! Here is the guitar as purchased:  This shot shows the only real playability issue with it, low strings over the cover:  Here's the cone and biscuit:   Here's the inside, notice the soundwell shim:   |
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Post by Mark Makin on Aug 29, 2011 16:15:54 GMT
Hello Gaucho
I didn't say it SHOULD have a hook coverplate. I said it was made around the time these were in use and MAY have been a reason for the replacement coverplate.
YES, the coverplate is an original 30s chicken feet plate BUT it was made at least 4 or 5 years AFTER the guitar. It appears to have been changed AFTER the hand wear on the body top was acquired.The original would have worn to the same degree, after all it is made from the same brass. So the plate has obviously been replaced but why is anyones guess!
Looks to be a good buy though - as a players instrument you can't really go wrong with it. I'm sure there are small issues with it, compressed or low cone, break angle, nut etc.. but even with a cone replacement you have the potential for a MUCH better instrument than any Chinese or contemporary made item - what else can you get for $650?
Best
Mark
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Post by gaucho on Aug 29, 2011 18:30:43 GMT
Hey Mark, forgive me if you felt my post was calling you out for giving me bad info. Not at all! I realize that we are all hugely privileged to have access to the vast amount of knowledge you, Michael and others on here posses and share freely.
After digging into this thing, I am feeling like I really scored on it. I has happy with it before, but now that I have found out it's all original 1930's era National (except for the neck and tuners) I'm super stoked on it! I turned the tuners over, reshaped the nut to be lower, pulled out the wooden shim under the cone and removed all the glue from it, massaged the collapsed cone back into shape and put it all back together with a new set of 15-56 strings. The action is now right where I like it and the strings clear the coverplate by a good margin. And the tone is better now that I removed that wooden shim between the cone and soundwell (what were they thinking?!). It's louder and it barks now! That shim had to be a major tone killer....
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Post by Mark Makin on Aug 29, 2011 18:34:01 GMT
Hi Gaucho
Nothing to forgive - just my way of emphasising salient points.
I think you've made a good purchase. The instrument ( with minor adjustments) looks to be a sound, clean item
Best
Mark
Incidentally, shims or felt are never really a good idea. The first thing to go are the tonal "highs". Some instruments were factory fitted with a green felt layer, but in most cases - metal to metal is best!
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Post by Michael Messer on Aug 30, 2011 11:12:13 GMT
Hi Gaucho,
You got an amazing deal there!
I am pleased to hear that you took out the shim and set the guitar up. Re-shaping the cone, if possible, is always preferable to replacing it. These days too many so-called experts are too quick to dive in and replace components. It is not possible from a few photos to really identify the problems, only by actually seeing it can one be sure.
How much your cone had sunk, if at all, is something only you can tell as I have not seen it. The shim to raise the cone may have gone in because the replacement coverplate may be a slightly different shape to the original. This is something I have experienced and a couple millimetres in the bowl shaping makes a big difference.
If everything is working fine, then you have done very well - enjoy!
Shine On
Michael.
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Post by gaucho on Aug 30, 2011 15:24:03 GMT
Michael, I'm glad you mentioned that. I did feel like the coverplate was domed up a bit higher that others I had seen and that would totally explain my problem. I'm very glad that I opened her up tho, I would never have known that tone killing shim was in there! The cone didn't have any big dents or anything, but it was pushed down a bit. A little massaging brought the action right up where it needs to be, even with out that shim in there. Is it OK to put a new bridge insert into the original biscuit (and is that even possible)? The original is almost gone and if the action creeps downward again, I'd like to be able to try that before resorting to a new Hot Rod cone.
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Post by Michael Messer on Aug 30, 2011 15:45:10 GMT
Hi Gaucho, You should be able to get a new bridge saddle in there, but it may take a little time and patience to get the old one out. I would advise replacing the bridge saddle, rather than the whole biscuit....if possible. Also, if the cone does sink back into its old shape; re-massage it back to its proper shape and with some fine beads of glue, strengthen the weakened areas. The glue I would use in the UK is called 'Araldite two part epoxy resin' - I think you can probably get it in the US. It is very strong and careful application on the inside of the cone can strengthen it.   To massage and reshape the cone; use a flat surface, your hands, a rounded dowel (a wooden spoon handle is good), and a ballpoint pen.  ....the ballpoint pen is excellent for rolling the shapes back into the cone, especially around the edges and in the spirals. Make sure the pen rolls smoothly or it could tear the cone. If you want to try some things out, you may also want to try it without the two extra pit props. Original Nationals vary in the amount of props inside, some have two and some have four. Four can in some guitars stifle the bass. It looks like it has been well restored, or built from parts, either way you have done well for 600 dollars. Shine On Michael. |
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