MICHAEL MESSER - N. W. Schireson Patent #1,887,861

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MICHAEL MESSER :: MICHAEL MESSER FORUM :: NATIONAL AVENUE :: N. W. Schireson Patent #1,887,861

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Topic: N. W. Schireson Patent #1,887,861 (Read 1,042 times)

buckwheat
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N. W. Schireson Patent #1,887,861
« Thread Started on Mar 4, 2007, 5:01pm »

Hello Michael:
I have been researching the Schireson Bros. who made resonator guitars in Los Angeles in the late 1920's to mid-1930's. Nathan W. Schireson has another patent registered with the USPTO, that was filed on Oct. 29, 1931, and that was registered as a Patent on Nov. 15, 1932,( #1,887,861) and it is not the same one I found that you have listed on your fine NOTECANNONS website, which I found by google. The reason for my search is that my brother found a tenor guitar for me in Hendersonville, TN, which he is sending up to me here in Canada, and I got to wondering who made the guitar, as I thought it may have been made by the National guitar company until the Patent Number printed on a label on the back of the headstock indicated the Schireson Bros. Can you reccommend any additional website locations to check on this company, and if their Patent # 1,887,861 was another attempt to circumvent the patents of the National Guitar Co. and/or the Dobro Company? The Patent listing on the USPTO is 5 pages in length, and does not appear to have been contested by any counter-claims. Any Info you could provide on the Schireson Bros. would be most welcome. Thank You

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Michael Messer
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Re: N. W. Schireson Patent #1,887,861
« Reply #1 on Mar 4, 2007, 5:53pm »

Hi Buckwheat,

Thank you for your message and welcome to our forum.

The Schireson and Brasher pages on the Notecannons site were not built by me, they are Colin's work. I built the site, but recently Colin has taken over running it. I am sure Colin will read this post and may be able to provide some more information for you. Also, Mark Makin, UK based National guitars researcher, may be able to add something. I am in the dark on this one, but have always thought Schireson tried to get in on the act, but did not have the right resonator system and it failed. Schireson resophonic guitars are very collectable and quite rare these days, but they do not have a good tone. This is because of the weird resonator/bridge assembly. We would be very interested to see some photos of your instrument?

Hendersonville, TN. I know Hendersonville. My brother lives close by. Johnny Cash & June Carter were also Hendersonville residents. It's a beautiful part of the world.

Whereabouts in Canada are you based?

Shine On,
Michael.

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buckwheat
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Re: N. W. Schireson Patent #1,887,861
« Reply #2 on Mar 5, 2007, 12:55am »

Hi Michael:
Thanks for the kind words of welcoming, and for passing on my request for more info on the Schireson Bros. The only info I've been able to cull out of my home library of printed matter on acoustic guitars is part of a sentance which deals with the history of KAY guitars, in which it is reported that during the depression in 1933, " (Kay) .....began making National El Trovador resonator guitars, S.S. Maxwell amplifying Guitars (Targ & Diner), and some Schireson Bros. Hollywood resonator guitars. " I expect to receive it in a couple of weeks, and I will send you some photos when they become available. I live just south of Barrie, Ontario in Innisfil Township, which is about 75 Km. north of Toronto
Keep Pickin' and Grinnin',
BuckWheat

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anders
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Re: N. W. Schireson Patent #1,887,861
« Reply #3 on Mar 5, 2007, 12:16pm »

Hi,

you can do a search on the pat.no. at:
http://patft1.uspto.gov/netahtml/PTO/srchnum.htm
and get scans of the patent. Might be useful.

Anders

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buckwheat
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Re: N. W. Schireson Patent #1,887,861
« Reply #4 on Mar 16, 2007, 10:35pm »

Hello Michael:
I've received the Schireson Resonator guitar, and it's in very good condition, although I think someone has installed a wood disc inside the resonator, perhaps to act as some type of mute. I can see it right under the top chrome steel coverplate, and the sound is not very loud at all. I guess I will try to take the chrome steel coverplate off the guitar, as it seems to be held in position on the wood guitar body by 8 slotheaded screws. The guitar top is a flat 3-ply laminated piece of wood, approx 0.30" thick, including a very thin top ply and equally thin bottom ply, with an approximately 1/4" of single ply in the middle of this 3 plywood sandwich. The wood back is about 1/8" thick, and has a very noticeable arch to it.. The coverplate is 9 1/2" in diameter, and the scale length is about 24 1/4" from the nut to the bridge. If you can send me some tips that perhaps I should be aware of before I try to remove the coverplate to see what purpose the wood disc below it serves, I would be most grateful. Also, please advise how to best send you some jpg. digital photos, and what minimum or maximum byte size they should be, and I will take some photos as I venture into the resonator core of the guitar. Thank You

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Colin McCubbin
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Re: N. W. Schireson Patent #1,887,861
« Reply #5 on Mar 22, 2007, 12:56am »

http://www.notecannons.com/forum_picture_info.html has some info on how to post a picture here...

We look forward to seeing the pictures and comparing the 'insides' with the two patent #s.

The wood plate sounds like the one depicted in fig.3 of patent 1,887,861 which in effect acted like the dobro spider, taking the string vibration from the bridge to the cone edge. It may well be all origional and extraordinarily rare, (I've never seen one, only the later patents cone versions) so pictures will be much appreciated!

The Patent #1,887,861 was, I believe, the one contested by the National Dobro company, it was too similar to the dobro system, hence the change to the system described in patent #1,927,575.

BTW Peter Sloan in Toronto has several Brasher guitars, and would, I'm sure be interested in your find.

Aloha

Colin

« Last Edit: Mar 22, 2007, 1:16am by Colin McCubbin »

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Re: N. W. Schireson Patent #1,887,861
« Reply #6 on Mar 22, 2007, 10:28am »

Hi Buckwheat,

I do apologize, this thread seems to have escaped my attention. It is not intentional, it is hard to keep up and occasionally one gets away!

I look forward to seeing your photos.

Shine On,
Michael.

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buckwheat
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Re: N. W. Schireson Patent #1,887,861
« Reply #7 on Mar 28, 2007, 5:07am »

Hi Boys: I've been away for awhile, and I will read up on the photo insertion rules, so that I can send you the visual info. I took the chrome coverplate off, making sure I returned all 8 screws back to their original lacations on the 1 1/4" triple laminated flat-top, and I found a spun alumimun bowl-shaped "CONE" resting in the body sound chamber, with the afore-mentionned patent number stamped into it, and on top of the open bowl rested a plywood circluar disc, on which a black-painted wooden bridge was attached by an adhesive glue, and apparently, lots of it, as it was quite evident. I've deduced that the plywood disc and bridge setup was original, and not a mute of any kind, so I attached a couple of K&K Big Twin piezo pickups to both sides of the bridge, using one of my hair bands, so it is not permanent, and I replaced the very nice chrome cover back on top of the guitar. It still doesn't really sound like a "dobro" when plugged in, but more "Banjo-Like", but there are different tones than can be obtained, plugged in or not, from different spots on the area between the end of the fretboard, and the bridge area. Did I mention that this 4-string has a scale length of 24 1/4" ? That's pretty long for a Tenor Guitar, but a bit too short to be considered a Plectrum Guitar, IMHO Anyway. I'll charge up my digital camera ang get back to you after taking some shots for you guys to check out, with and without the coverplate on.

Keep Tuned,
Buckwheat

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buckwheat
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Re: N. W. Schireson Patent #1,887,861
« Reply #8 on Apr 3, 2007, 2:42am »

Hello Michael:

I hope I am doing this correctly, and here's 15 jpgs of the Schireson Tenor Guitar with Patent No 1,887,861

Keep Tuned,
Buckwheat

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Colin McCubbin
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Re: N. W. Schireson Patent #1,887,861
« Reply #9 on Apr 7, 2007, 11:09pm »

Wow, great pics!

I just registered an account at photobucket to see what editing they offer.

If you go back to where you stored your pics on photobucket, they have an option to resize them to 640 by 480 which will fit the forum page better, and they will also download quicker.

To do this, select a pic, click on edit, then from the resize menu chose 640 by 480 and it is done.

Since the pic at photobucket is now saved in the same name as it was before, your pics in your post should automatically now be smaller. (you may have to refresh your browser (reload the page) to see the effect)

Aloha,

Colin

« Last Edit: Apr 7, 2007, 11:39pm by Colin McCubbin »

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Michael Messer
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Re: N. W. Schireson Patent #1,887,861
« Reply #10 on Apr 9, 2007, 2:37pm »

Excellent photos - thanks for posting them Buckwheat. It would be easier to see them at 640 by 480, but as these guitars and photos of their innards are so rare, I am pleased to see them at any size.

Shine On,
Michael.

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