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Post by steadyrollinman on Sept 27, 2010 16:40:34 GMT
Hi Michael,
What's your view regarding pick ups on old nationals? Do you thing they're intrusive and spoil the natural sound of the instrument?
Regards,
Chris
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Post by Michael Messer on Sept 27, 2010 17:24:26 GMT
Hi Chris,
I think that it depends on whether the old 'real' National has got its original cone and biscuit. If it has, then I would advise not fitting anything inside the guitar, whatever the pickup manufacturer says. However, if the guitar has a new cone & biscuit, it is not a problem to fit a Highlander as long as you don't drill a hole in the side of the guitar for a jack socket.
Fitting a new biscuit to a cone that contains a pickup, running a wire down to a pre-amp that is screwed to the neck stick, and then out to a jack socket, has to affect the tone in some way. It is not possible to do all that and for it to go un-noticed. Everything affects the tone in some way, it just depends on whether that change is acceptable or not. In addition, in my opinion it is all too invasive and should not be done to an antique guitar. If a player wants all that in their guitar, they should buy a new one.
I know I keep banging on about it, but in a decade or two from now there will be almost no all-original untampered with National guitars in existence.
I have Highlanders in both my Fine Resophonic guitars. They have been there since they were built, so I have never known the guitars without the pickups. I use the pickups so rarely that I would hardly notice if they were not there.
Shine On
Michael
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Post by steadyrollinman on Sept 27, 2010 19:22:11 GMT
Thanks Michael, your response was what I thought it would be.
When I've seen you perform, you've always miked up rather than use the pick ups.
Regards,
Chris
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Post by Michael Messer on Sept 28, 2010 9:29:51 GMT
Hi Chris,
I know we are all different, but for me the whole point of a National or Dobro is the sound you hear coming out of the front of the instrument. The sound taken directly from the cone with some kind of device attached to either the biscuit or the spider, is only a part of it. To hear the complete sound you have to be in front of the instrument.
I believe that as soon as you plug an acoustic guitar into a PA system or an amplifier, it is no longer an acoustic guitar and the musician's playing changes.
Shine On
Michael
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Post by steadyrollinman on Sept 28, 2010 15:38:49 GMT
Hi Michael,
The reason I ask is that I played an open mike session recently and had grief with feedback from the mikes. The host said I needed a pickup in the guitar to avoid this problem.
2 points here:
1. Ive seeen plenty of great resonator players going straight into the pa without any problems and sounding great too.
2. I didn't feel comfortable installing pickups to any of my nationals for all the reasons you have stated. The highlander option seemed to be common and I thought I ask your opinion.
Presumably, miking up is an art in its own right too?
Regards,
Chris
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Post by Michael Messer on Sept 28, 2010 16:47:09 GMT
Hi Chris, This is just a quick reply as I am just heading out; but in my experience it is easier and quicker to get a great sound through a PA with a mic than it is with the Highlander. The mic (a Shure SM57) requires no EQ adjustments, just everything set flat and roll off the graphic so it looks more like a frown  than a smile  . The smile is not good for mic'ing instruments. Then not too much gain and very little, if any, reverb. Takes me moments to set a PA to get a good sound out of a resonator guitar. The reason you got feedback problems was because everything was set wrong, probably by a well-meaning person who doesn't really understand. Think of this >you don't plug your voice into the PA, you use a mic . I can go into this more when I have more time..... Shine On Michael |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2010 18:30:56 GMT
Chris
I have pickups on all my 3 resos. For playing at an open mic, which I have given up doing now, pickups are easy to use and anybody can adjust the sound. Through a well adjusted good PA they sound good, but without the subtlety of the same guitar played through a mic.
I use them because I cannot sit and play for long; I have to stand and to stand still and play is not my thing! Thus the pickups.
But they are far more costly than a Sure SM57 and good stand. It's horses for courses. If you can sit and play a mic is best, and you can work out the best position relative to the guitar. You might even teach the sound man at the open mic!
Barry
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Post by slidenpickit on Sept 28, 2010 19:31:59 GMT
Chris,
For what its worth here is my take on the subject of pickups. I have single cones and a wooden Tricone (non are vintage) NRPs. My style 0 is fitted with a National Hotplate, an El Trovador is fitted with a Highlander as is the tricone. I also have a Resolectric which is a different animal with a Highlander and a P90 and works great through a PA. IMHO the Hotplate works best in the absence of a good mic and it is quick and easy to set up a decent transparent sound through a PA. The Hotplate can be fitted to your guitar (by you) without being attached to either your cone or biscuit and no holes have to be drilled anywhere, Everything is contained in the supplied coverplate. When I first got it I immediately assumed I would need a pre-amp. Tried that and wasn't keen on the sound. Tried it without a pre-amp straight in to a PA and didn't think it was working until I turned up the volume a little and....bingo works great! which to me was surprising for a passive pickup.
I would not now have another Highlander in any of my guitars.
I use a Shure SM57 when I can as a first preference but no matter how good the Mic is, if your sound is in the wrong hands it will not work as it should.
I know you sometimes have to be diplomatic at jam nites. What do the other reso players use who plug straight in?
Regards
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Post by robn on Sept 28, 2010 20:21:46 GMT
My first choice would be a mic'
Reso guitars have great forward throw of sound, so whether standing or sitting a mic' is just fine for playing with a small band. Just have a look at any Woody Pines videos on YouTube and you'll see how straightforward it is to work with just a mic' in front of your reso in a band situation at pub/small venue gigs.
A mag p/u is good if you want to colour the sound and push higher volumes with less feedback.
I've tested lots of peizo internal p/us (cone fitted and biscuit/bridge fitted) and not been that impressed that they can delivery any more feedback resistance than simply using a mic' - and the tone from these p/us requires lots of EQ, and a mic' feed, to be usable.
A reso guitar is an acoustic instrument. if I was to fit a p/u then I would go for a mag to give me a different tonal pallet to play with and not treat the instrument as being acoustic once I plugged in.
I did note when I was at Shrewsbury Folk Festival over the August bank holiday that those singer/songwritters who plugged in their acoustic guitars had far more sound and balance problems than those who simply stood or sat in front of a mic' playing the guitar and singing.
Robin
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Post by Michael Messer on Sept 29, 2010 9:09:30 GMT
We have had this discussion many times and luckily we all have our own preferences about amplifying our guitars, otherwise we'd all sound the same.
I still maintain that a plugged in acoustic instrument is no longer acoustic, and that it is not just about the sound. A plugged in guitar makes the musician play different, it is a totally different experience to playing an acoustic instrument.
If I have to plug in, which occasionally does happen; in 30 years of fitting every possible product into my guitars, I have never found anything that reproduces the sound of a resonator as well as Highlander pickups. They are not perfect and they are not cheap, but I do believe they are the best. Magnetic pickups are great. I have used them many times on resonator guitars and I have had great sounds from them, but in my opinion they do not the same acoustic qualities as a Highlander.
I think John Dopyera would think the idea of plugging in a National is crazy; trying to plug in his acoustic 'ampliphonic' guitars to make them louder and to maintain the acoustic tone. The whole point of his invention was to make them loud, and the beauty of his invention is that it is entirely mechanical.
The only way to really keep the sound that John Dopyera intended, if that is what you are looking for, is to stand or sit in front of a microphone.
Shine On
Michael
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Post by marshcat on Sept 29, 2010 9:52:57 GMT
Hi Chris,
>> What's your view regarding pick ups on old nationals? <<
Well, you know my answer :-) it's the same as Michael's, so I won't go into that further.
But I still get problems, after 20 years, from sound guys who cannot mic up an acoustic guitar, never mind a National. It's a dying art.
If you possibly can, introduce yourself to the sound engineer (get his name and remember it for next time) before you're on stage; explain the possibility of feedback and get him to show you the PA channel which will be used for your guitar. Disregard all the rest.
This will reduce the hundreds of buttons or sliders on the desk to a manageable few which your addled pre-gig brain can cope with. The bass, mid and treble buttons should all be flat at 12 o-clock, though I sometimes use the 11, 12 and 11 o'clock positions respectively, as the mid-range is where the sound of a vintage National really excels.
Michael's suggestion about the PA's overall EQ setting is the ideal - frown not smile. First time out, use zero reverb - your great-sounding vintage Nationals have quite enough natural reverb built in!
When you start playing, stay about 6-8" away from the mic and let the engineer use the safety margin to compensate. Unless the foldback is good, you may think your guitar's not loud enough, but don't tempt fate by getting closer to the mic. Concentrate only on playing.
After the spot, try to remember to thank the sound guy or, if there have been feedback problems, discuss them with him - what frequencies were affected, any suggestions he may have for the future, etc.
When you get comfortable with all this, experiment a bit with mic positioning by moving the relative positions of mic/guitar during your spot - to get more bass/treble emphasis and to see where feedback occurs, if at all.
For years I played with Michael, plus up to two other acoustic/National guitars, piano, mandolin/uke, washboard and vocals - up to 8 channels all with mics, and feedback was seldom a problem. So one vocal with one guitar is a manageable thing - even for the dumbo sound engineer who cannot figure out why there's no wire dangling from your instrument :-)
Hope this helps,
Stuart
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2010 10:21:03 GMT
Giving in to the sound man saying that you need a pickup in your guitar is just pandering to a misconception. Tell him how you want to do it and that's that. I have my own way of doing things, and use a small amp on stage, my acoustic guitar has a Lawrence soundhole pickup in it - thats the sound I like and that that's what the sound guy has to deal with..it's not a conventional acoustic sound, but its MY sound.
I usually just ask for a vocal mic or if he wants to mic the amp, then that's fine. I'm amazed at how many times this flummoxes the sound man. I think they feel surplus to requirements, and the control has been taken out of their hands by only having a vocal mike to deal with. Likewise if I'm using a reso and say, just put a mic on it (and I'll bring my own SM57 and stand), it's often the same sort of reaction. Mic-ing up drums too..in a small venue, a snare and kickdrum are often plenty loud enough on their own, but so many times they want to put mics on everything.
Unfortunately these days the term "unplugged" when referring to music is totally incorrect - it ought to mean just that - NOTHING plugged in, just a mic to get the signal thru' to the pa or broadcast medium.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2010 17:18:55 GMT
Hi all
As a lateral comment on this and in follow up to my earlier post I now run the Pinner Acoustic Folk and Blues Club. Nothing here gets plugged in so everything is acoustic. Much better that way.
Barry. PS please PM if you want details of the club
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2010 1:36:42 GMT
I've come to find that if one is interested in getting the purest and most natural acoustic tone out of a resonator guitar one must keep all extraneous items out of the body of the guitar. Any wire, pot, preamp module, etc. is going to interfere with the way the sound waves move within, and eventually out of the guitar. These items always seem to attenuate the volume and in nearly every case, take the sweetest part of the tone of a guitar away. Any mechanical device which interferes with the way the guitar produces sound will inevitably change the tone--in my experience not for the better. This leaves miking and surface mounted magnetic pickups to get the volume up to stage levels, although having a pickup stuck to the surface of my guitar is noticeable when I play strictly acoustically. Maybe I'm just too anal about acoustic tone, but I've used most of the commonly available types of pickup systems and although some produce wonderful amped sounds, all of them interfere with the pure acoustic reso tone which is what I love about these guitars. The hotplate was the most extreme example--wonderful amped tone and excellent resistance to feedback but with so much hardware under the hood with the pots, wires and pickup, as well as two less sets of sieve diamonds where the hardware was mounted, the acoustic tone was doomed. For my money, I stick the magnetics on if I want to plug in, then unstick them directly afterward to play acoustically. I have a couple of the humbucking type from NRP which are very nice.
Oh, Michael, I know you had commented that you have always had the Highlanders in your Fine Resophonics and were used to the tone, but I would wager a Newcastle Brown that you would notice an improvement were they removed!
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Post by Michael Messer on Sept 30, 2010 8:49:45 GMT
An interesting thread.
lfotremolo, I know that I would notice a difference if the Highlanders were removed from my FR guitars, but as they have been there undisturbed since the guitars were built (Tricone - 2000, Single cone - 1998), I am not touching anything. However, I'll happily share a bottle of Newcastle Brown with you someday.
Shine On
Michael
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than a smile 
. The smile is not good for mic'ing instruments. Then not too much gain and very little, if any, reverb.
