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Post by Michael Messer on Jun 3, 2009 10:54:06 GMT
Hi everyone, There have been many discussions on this forum about amplifying resonator guitars and most regular visitors know my views on this subject. Just to clarify that; I use a Shure SM57 to amplify all my resonator guitars, both National-style and Dobro-style. I also occasionally plug my resonator guitars into the PA system, and when I do that I use Highlander pickups in my National-style guitars (single cone and Tricone) and an original first generation McIntire in my Dobro-style guitars. I am currently in discussion with Dave Burrluck, the reviews editor of Guitarist magazine, about this subject and I would be very interested to know what people use to amplify their resonator guitars and how successful they think the system is? Over the years I have tried numerous systems of homemade and custom built pickups and apart from the mics and pickups I have mentioned above, I have found the only other successful route is to use a magnetic pickup of some kind. Dave Burrluck is currently testing the Flatbucker, which is handmade by my good friend Hermann Attenberger in Germany. I would be very interested to hear peoples' thoughts and experiences on this subject. Thank you, Shine On, Michael.
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Post by andys on Jun 3, 2009 12:05:02 GMT
I actually like the sound of magnetic pickups on both resonator and acoustic guitars, so I have gone that route. I have seen many players using magnetic pickups on resonators, and have really liked their tone. People like Doug McLeod, Kent DuChaine, and further back Rory Gallagher, all seemed to use magnetic pickups fitted to their resonators. Also I dont actually like the sound of piezo/transducer pickups on acoustics so even my dreadnought is fitted with a Fishman magnetic soundhole pickup. In my old gigging days when I needed to amplify an acoustic at volume, I used an EKO Ranger fitted with a Strat pickup across the soundhole. Gave me a good tone, and no feedback. My MM Blues is fitted with a simple Artec pickup, designed for archtop guitars, but modified to fit and yet be easily removed. I simply fitted a jack socket into one of the F-holes, and the only mod I have done to the guitar is to drill a small hole in the soundwell to run the lead through. Oh, I had to slightly prise up the corner of the pickup, so that the lead out from it, didnt get in the way of the pickup sitting flat on the guitar front. I run this through a Valve Jnr, for a bit of warmth, and love the tone. Controlled feedback and a slide is pretty good fun sometimes. I prefer the magnetic approach, though thats just my opinion. I know that some folks love the Highlander and MacIntyre systems, but I went for the simple and easy option. Oh and at £25 for the pickup, it was a pretty good value approach as well. I am though very interested in the FlatBucker, I think that would be a great solution as it would fit nicely at the fingerboard end. The Artec is a bit too deep to fit in this location which is why I sited it nearer to the bridge. For recording though, I use a mic unless I want a specific magnetic tone.
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Post by growler on Jun 3, 2009 12:35:29 GMT
My last reso ( johnston Style -O ) had a piezo fitted in it which I absolutely hated the sound of ....... it sounded to me like you were playing a guitar made out of Glass ? all the overtones ...... awful . It was not until someone let me play into an SM57 that convinced me this is the way to go . This pickup you are talking about Michael is like one I have seen that seems to be attached to the end of the fret board, if it is I think they look extremely neat . The only thing that puts me of the likes of magnetic pickups is all the wires visible on the outside of the guitar. if these could be hidden inside ....... much nicer. Of course the sound of a magnetic I think sounds better than Piezo's, I have not heard A Highlander so I cannot comment , but one added bonus with the magnetic route is I suppose you could put it through an effect pedal, Delay , tremelo , etc.
The only real drawback I have with the SM57 is you have to stay put whilst playing , also be aware of not hitting the mic which sounds awful ...... no gyrating around the stage as you can with the magnetic pickup on you guitar here. Finally can anyone tell me , if they use the SM57at what distance they have the mic away from the reso
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markh1
Serious MM Forum Member
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Post by markh1 on Jun 3, 2009 12:35:45 GMT
Hi Michael I have a NRP M2 which has a highlander pickup and I used to run it through an Ashdown acoustic amp. The guitar sounds great and the amp is brilliant, except when plugged in together! I previously had a Goldtone Paul Beard resonator with a fishman and had the same problem. I now do what I should have done all along which was to follow your advice and mic up the guitar using a SM57 through the pa. This captures the true sound of the guitar and all its tonal variation which the pick up doesn't. On both guitars the pickups made the instruments sound too brittle and lacking in warmth. This seems to have been the same with the cheapish Goldtone & the more expensive NRP, both with reasonably good recomended pickups professionally fitted.. I have a NRP resonator mandolin which I also use the SM57 with and now wouldn't even contemplate sourcing a pick up Mark
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Post by Michael Messer on Jun 3, 2009 13:00:51 GMT
This is good - keep 'em coming Growler - regarding distance from the SM57......Although I sit down to play, I do move myself around the mic quite a lot to vary the volume and tone of the out-front sound. I go close in on the F holes for bass, close in on the cone for treble, and use the midway between F hole & cone for a mid-range tone. Then I vary my distance from way back off the mic (12 inches or more) to right up close, almost touching the guitar. As a safe 'do everything' position, try 6 inches from the mic and the midway position. In addition I should say that I always run my mic louder than I need, that way I always have some headroom if needed. I use the SM57 in the same way as an electric guitarist would use the pickup selector, volume and tone controls. That way I have control of my sound. This technique did not come overnight, it took a lot of playing through PAs to master using the mic in this way. Regarding foldback - if there is a foldback system and you are using a mic, keep the volume of the foldback really low. It should be no louder than your resonator guitar and the foldback mix should be a reference of the out-front sound. That way you can still hear your own guitar as well as the foldback. Shine On Michael.
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Post by Gerry C on Jun 3, 2009 14:29:29 GMT
First off, I much prefer to go the MM route and use an SM57 for my reso. However, in the past... When I first started playing out again in 2003 after a lay-off of about ten years, I was in folk-clubs and 'acoustic nights' where generally PAs were not used. However, once I started getting gigs in pubs, larger clubs and some local festivals, amplification became a problem. I'm sorry to say that few sound engineers (especially the younger ones) have much idea of how to mic up a reso: feedback and overall tone were frequent problems when only using a mic. So I fitted my Ozark reso with a Fishman reso pickup, which fits under the cone: not really all that good, but it gave me a bulk sound I could then EQ with either my Orchid pre-amp or a small EQ pedal into something reasonably OK, especially if I had a mic as well. When I got my MM Lightning I also bought one of the Schatten pickups which fixes to the underside of the cone. Now I'd heard really good reports of these items and I'm sure they are good pieces of kit - just not for me. I had mine professionally fitted and it killed the cone stone-dead, making my MML sound like the worst example of the cheapest reso on the planet! After much discussion with MM, Robin at Busker and my guitar-man Bill Dinsdale ( www.billdinsdale.com ), a Schatten NR-1 was fitted. This goes on the tailpiece face of the saddle (so it does not affect the cone) and the wire drops down through a small hole drilled in the soundwell wall to an endpin jack. I only had to ensure that the wire did not touch the outside of the cone to avoid buzzes etc. Result? A really good clear sound with lots of oomph (sorry for the technical term). It still needs careful EQ - basically treble down, bass up, midrange flat, depending on the room - but it is much superior to the Fishman and the other Schatten. Still prefer a SM57, though! Cheerily, Gerry C
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Post by lewiscohen on Jun 3, 2009 15:44:03 GMT
For solo and duo gigs - mic only. Recently switched from SM57 to Rode M3 for this purpose because it does a better job when frequently switching between reso and flat top
For short sets/interval spots where I may be a) standing and b) given next to no time to get a decent sound - Highlanders into the PA for both single cone and tricone
Have tried a Schatten NR-2 recently (to put on my scruffy old student model) and it seemed really scratchy. Did a good job of replicating the reso sound for sure, almost as good as Highlander, but with a disproportional amount of slide noise.
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Post by Blues Pertti on Jun 3, 2009 16:07:27 GMT
Hi,
I use mostly Benedetti mini humbucker. It gives nice sound either with small valve amp or with acoustic guitar amp (just totally different tone). It is easy to install with double sided tape.
Regards Pertti
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martinw
Serious MM Forum Member
Posts: 31
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Post by martinw on Jun 3, 2009 16:20:56 GMT
Preferably a mic only, but as someone mentioned above, the vast majority of sound engineers I've come across can't cope with acoustic instruments to save their life and too often I ended up with the "feedback or nothing" syndrome. So I've got Highlanders in both my resos.
Not really that happy with the sound in either to be honest: Estralita has too much bass and the tricone is a bit tinny so a mixture of the pick up and a mic tends to be the best option I can come up with.
M.
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Post by clarke111 on Jun 3, 2009 16:35:25 GMT
Hi,
I think in order to get the best 'true' resonator sound you can't beat a SM-57 through a decent PA, it seems to be the tried and tested formula, is affordable (as long as the venues have a pa), and can be really versitile when you start 'working' the mic.
However, I wanted the sound to be a bit different, with the reso running through a valve amp, I tried everything before finally settling on the flatbucker. It is absolutely brilliant, perfect through a small all valve combo, but would no doubt also be fine through a PA. What impressed me most is that, whilst it can sound fairly overdriven if you want that sound, it also retains a lot of the 'resonator' clarity, on a amp setting that has my American tele breaking up a lot, the Busker squareneck tricone still sounds fantastic, warm and crystal clean. It is an amazing good piece of kit, and is ideal for live work, just being able to plug in and play. I was also nicely surprised to find that it was good for recording. I put a mic on the guitar acoustically, and mic'd the amp in a seperate room allowing the signal to be blended, which worked well (I'll upload some sound samples soon).
I would strongly recommend it as a way to amplify your reso in almost any situation, feedback resistance is also excellent.
Chris
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Post by Michael Messer on Jun 3, 2009 18:59:59 GMT
There are some interesting comments coming through about sound engineers and their understanding of mic'ing acoustic instruments. You are not alone - I have experienced similar problems, maybe even the same soundman! The reason they have problems is because they are not setting the system up properly in the first place; not just for acoustic music, but for electric bands too. They just don't know what they are doing and their sound is probably terrible with all types of bands. It is at times like this that you have to politely and carefully 'take over' and guide them through setting it up properly. Usually the EQs are insane, the mic inputs are set way too hot, the foldback is too loud and in fact probably the out-front sound is too loud as well Best thing is to reset everything at zero/flat and start again. In fact, everything set flat is fine and will do a pretty good job. If the soundman says that the room is too big or noisy to use mics, ask him what he does with vocals when he is doing the sound for a rock band. The most important thing when working with a soundman is to keep him/her on your side. The last thing you want at a gig is to have the soundman not on your side! I always say that I have been setting my sound up for 35 years and I can set the PA to make it sound good. It doesn't always work, but most times they are interested to see how you do it. This is the reason that artists who have the budget take their own soundman to shows. Shine On Michael.
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Post by Michael Messer on Jun 3, 2009 19:06:29 GMT
Hi Pertti,
Good to hear from you.
The Benedetti pickups do have an excellent reputation. Both Mike Lewis at Fine Resophonic in Paris and Dave King here in the UK use their humbucker for resonators. I would be very interested to hear yours - do you have any recordings of it that you could let us hear?
Thanks,
Shine On Michael.
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Post by Michael Messer on Jun 3, 2009 19:19:22 GMT
HI Lewis, Interesting. The Rode M3 is a condenser mic and is primarily designed for studio use. On stage it will not cut through like an SM 57 or 58, but I am sure it is good. I have been around them used as overheads on a drumkit in the studio, but I have never been around them on stages. They are gathering a reputation as a great budget priced studio workhorse, but they do not have a great reputation as a stage mic. Having said that, you seem to be getting successful results with it, and that is all that matters. Plenty of aoustic players use condenser mics on stage with great results. I think it is quite similar to the AKG...C1000, certainly that is what I have heard whenever M3 is mentioned. A good thread - very interesting for all of us. Shine On Michael.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2009 21:31:12 GMT
I have a flatbucker on my Busker Delta steel single cone and that gives a very full and fat blues sound through any amp. The p/up suits well the tone of this guitar. There's a You Tube demo of this.
I have a Lace Sensor pickup on the Busker Cannon, this makes that guitar sound very much as it does un-amplified, but louder.
Robin is working out the best pickup for the Deco tricone, he may tell us all before he tells me!
Barry
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Post by blueshome on Jun 4, 2009 8:59:29 GMT
I've used an AKG C1000 with great success for the last 7 or 8 years and have a friend who is a reso player and does the the same (even to the extent of using it at a loud pub jam he runs).
I have never heard a pickup on an acoustic guitar that left the instrument sounding like an acoustic guitar. This doesn't mean that the sounds produced were all bad, although many were, just different.
If the situation is such that I can't mic up, then it's time to bring out an electric and stop pretending that it's an acoustic gig.
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