National M1 Baritone

Michael may have better ideas, but here is my theory on the buzz that goes away at lower string pull......... If a ball-end (or a bit of tail/p) is buzzing on the top , by lowering pressure the tail/p, may spring up a little, so the buzz stops.See if you can slide a strip of paper under any ball-ends, at low tuning, then tuneup and see (ok,hear) what happens....... PT

It seems like the right tuning, string - they all have different tensions to them - go hand in hand. I think I have found when I have the right combo that the machine will stay in tune better and not resettle itself. On both my duolian and the jwinter I have had to fiddle with that combo, mm strings on the duolian have worked out really well for me, and martin bluesgrass on the JWinter. I just sent the JWinter out for a tune up, and it came back - I haven't had to futz with it -stays in tune and like with the duolian on MM string it seems to settle in. The JWinter's just come back from a professional tune up and sounds like a grown up resonator.

Hi Chris,

It is an inherent problem in old and new National Triplates, and other brands that build Triplates correctly, they do occasionally buzz. No other resonator guitar behaves like a Triplate. The problem is far worse in old Triplates with original cones, new ones are generally less likely to buzz.

First of all, I do not agree with using any kind of gaskets to stop buzzes in Triplates, or any resonator guitar. The only gaskets I would leave in are in 1920s and 30s Nationals when they occasionally used felt under the cones, but this is a whole different discussion.

Felt, leather, paper or any other gasket under the tailpiece, under the cones, or under the coverplate, will affect how the vibrations travel through the guitar and ultimately dampen the tone and volume.

I would never advise anyone to press down on the tailpiece of a Triplate, it is not a good thing to do as it puts too much uneven pressure on the cones. It did stop the buzz, but it is not advisable.

The 'most likely' reason for your buzzing guitar is that the T bridge is not quite seated properly on the top of the cones. On a new Triplate, the cones will be nice and flat and the soundwell (pan) is also in good shape, so it is as I say....most likely the way the T bridge is in contact with the top of the cones. If the problem becomes persistent, I would talk to me again about dismantling the guitar to cure it. Meanwhile, this should do it….

The buzz is caused by the way the pins on the T go into the cones. I would never put downward pressure on anything that touches the cones....tailpiece, T bridge etc..., I would move the T around to re-seat it. I vary how I do this, depending on how the whole thing feels to me. Here are the various ways I would do this without dismantling the guitar…

In 'most cases', moving the T bridge back towards the tailpiece gets rid of the buzz. Using your fingers either side of the strings….push the T bridge back towards the tail….BUT….don't actually move it. Sometimes I use my fingers like a hammer and just knock it back. If you are unsure about this method, try loosening the strings just enough to take the pressure off a little, maybe a tone or two down, and then move the T bridge backwards and also maybe side to side, then retune and it should be okay. This is terribly difficult to explain without actually showing you, because you must understand that my moving of the T bridge is so slight that you can't really feel that it has moved. But in my experience of handling dozens of Triplates, this is the most common cause of a buzz.

If the ball ends of the strings are causing buzzes - do one of the following things > either put them in the tailpiece slots so they don't cause a buzz, or slightly reshape the tailpiece so they cannot buzz. But….do not use a gasket. When I put strings in the tailpiece of my Triplates and one or two other guitars, I use an old string pushed into the hole in the ball end, to guide it and seat it correctly. And I leave the string in the hole while I tune it. This keeps the ball end sitting flat, rather than twisting round so the side of the brass ball end touches the coverplate. (I use a three inch piece of a bottom E string with the ball end on, as my 'ball end controller'. I have done this for years and find it a very useful tool when fitting strings on Nationals).

Regarding your question about the amount of pressure required to drive a Triplate; very little break angle is required, too much break angle puts too much pressure on the back end and over time will dent the back bass cone. I have seen this happen on many Triplates. With a correctly set up Triplate, you should be able to tune it slack or tight and not have any problems. My square-neck Triplate has been in high bass G tuning with 16/56 gauge strings for quite a few years and there is no damage to the cones. A badly set up Triplate in high bass G tuning will cause serious problems.

Picks - there is no question about it, the way a string is plucked with bare fingers causes the string to vibrate in a way that is really not good for Triplates. A plucked string with a fingerpick will not cause any problems……..BUT ……..all Triplates require more 'cone awareness' than any other resonator guitar. So you can play them hard and thwack the strings around, but you have to do that with great control and a natural understanding of what is happening to the cones while you play. This is just like knowing when to change gear in a car, you just feel it. I know that you have 'cone awareness' and totally understand what I am saying.

Also, when you play a Triplate, I believe you need to move your right hand around, so that when you play hard you are near the bridge and when you play soft, you are further forward. Thwacking the strings (playing them too hard) too far forward, near the neck, can cause the problems you have experienced.

I hope my Triplate Ramblings have been of some help!

Shine On
Michael

Hi Bobbysox,

It is just me and a few of my close 'serious conehead' friends being pedantic about National guitars.

The correct name for it used to be 'National Triplate'. That is what the Dopyeras called them, and that, apart from the occasional use of 'National Silver Guitars' and 'National Ampliphonic Guitars' was the only name I had ever heard used. I had also never heard the word 'cone' used until relatively recently.

During the late 1970s and right through the 1980s I was in touch with many American collectors and dealers, and they did not call them Tricones and Cones.

The first time I heard the words 'Tricone' and 'cone' was when I met Bob Brozman in the late 1980s. I don't know if Bob was the first to use those terms, but he was the first person I heard use them. Back in the 80s, 90s and early part of the 00s, Bob was a major influence on the world of resophonic guitars, and his terminology and opinions spread and became known by everyone.

Cones were called 'resonators' or 'diaphrams'. I had never heard of a 'cone' until the late 80s.

Also, the term 'Resonator Guitar' was a recent addition to the language. I believe this became popular because of the 'London Resonator Centre' (LRC) that existed from 2001 to 2006. Prior to LRC's existence I had not heard people calling them 'resonator guitars', they were called 'resophonic guitars'.

These days, the National Reso-Phonic Guitars company call their guitars 'Tricones' so that is their name. I guess you could say that old ones are Triplates and new ones are Tricones!!!

I think John Dopyera would rap them all on the knuckles and insist on the use of 'Triplate' and 'Diaphram'.

I hope that makes some sense

Resophonically Yours,

Shine On
Michael

Hi Chris,
Have you got your M1 National Baritone sorted now ?
It's great to see such an indepth reply from Michael!
To meet MM,Mark Makin and others "in the know", then gather information is so valuable as a player ! I have had the same problem as you Chris from time to time and was solved from the above posts.

Michael and Mark will always be my source of learning , because they make so much sense about National Guitars .Reading MM's post, it all makes sense now to me.. i have done just this! MM and Mark have been round these wonderful guitars since forever !

My pleasure Chris. Always happy to help if I can.

Let's hope the dreaded buzz stays away!

Keep in touch,

Shine On
Michael.